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	<title>Comments on: After the Speeches (Gabriel Levin)</title>
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	<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/</link>
	<description>Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes)</description>
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		<title>By: SJ</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1467</link>
		<dc:creator>SJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 02:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1467</guid>
		<description>&gt;&gt; I still have some hope in Obama’s ability to force all sides towards some solution. 

It is soooooooo not gonna work out that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; I still have some hope in Obama’s ability to force all sides towards some solution. </p>
<p>It is soooooooo not gonna work out that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Gert</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1466</link>
		<dc:creator>Gert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1466</guid>
		<description>Mad Zionist:

I&#039;ve often wondered how extremists like you sail through life without getting shipwrecked at the first cliff encountered or even during docking in your home harbour. I still don&#039;t understand it.

You invert every truth going and somehow manage to keep your self-image intact.

You&#039;re a walking parody. A movie about your life would be an extraordinary experience, I think.

Now please start writing letters to the powers that be, regarding your comprehensive peace plan for the Middle East. I know there are a few Israeli luminaries on the Hyper Far Right that would be right behind your effort. The fact that collectively these people get about 5 votes in &#039;Liberal Israel&#039; shouldn&#039;t deter you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mad Zionist:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve often wondered how extremists like you sail through life without getting shipwrecked at the first cliff encountered or even during docking in your home harbour. I still don&#8217;t understand it.</p>
<p>You invert every truth going and somehow manage to keep your self-image intact.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re a walking parody. A movie about your life would be an extraordinary experience, I think.</p>
<p>Now please start writing letters to the powers that be, regarding your comprehensive peace plan for the Middle East. I know there are a few Israeli luminaries on the Hyper Far Right that would be right behind your effort. The fact that collectively these people get about 5 votes in &#8216;Liberal Israel&#8217; shouldn&#8217;t deter you&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mad Zionist</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1463</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Zionist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1463</guid>
		<description>Gert, you are a cartoonish, run-of-the-mill, Judeophobe, who views Palestinian suffering as an activists tool for the collective punishment of Jews. Your total disregard for the well being of the Palestinians is embarassingly transparent. Yes, by all means just focus on punishing Zionists, be obsessed with it actually, and if a resolution to the conflict were to happen without the Jews or Palestinians suffering oppose it with great prejudice. 

Tell the truth, Gert: Just the thought of harsh and brutal payback meted out against the Jews gives you serious wood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gert, you are a cartoonish, run-of-the-mill, Judeophobe, who views Palestinian suffering as an activists tool for the collective punishment of Jews. Your total disregard for the well being of the Palestinians is embarassingly transparent. Yes, by all means just focus on punishing Zionists, be obsessed with it actually, and if a resolution to the conflict were to happen without the Jews or Palestinians suffering oppose it with great prejudice. </p>
<p>Tell the truth, Gert: Just the thought of harsh and brutal payback meted out against the Jews gives you serious wood.</p>
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		<title>By: Gert</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1462</link>
		<dc:creator>Gert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1462</guid>
		<description>Mad Zionist:

How could a country like Jordan with a population of just over 6 million be expected to absorb almost the same amount of people without this causing enormous strains on resources, not to mention enormous amounts of frayed nerves.

The essentialism Nick refers to applies also here: to many radical Zionists, Arabs are Arabs, without distinction between the various sub-groups. Jordanians may feel a degree of kinship with their Palestinian &#039;brethren&#039; but only up to a point. Why should their country be made to pay the price of Zionism&#039;s expansionist tendencies? Like I said above, it&#039;s rewarding bad behaviour.

Zionism would feel forever emboldened by this &#039;success&#039;. Isn&#039;t the Promised Land supposed to &lt;i&gt;&quot;stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates, which today would take in a large chunk of Egypt, Israel and the occupied territories, the whole of Jordan, and a broad slice of western Iraq&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/05/israel5&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Daniella Weiss points out?&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mad Zionist:</p>
<p>How could a country like Jordan with a population of just over 6 million be expected to absorb almost the same amount of people without this causing enormous strains on resources, not to mention enormous amounts of frayed nerves.</p>
<p>The essentialism Nick refers to applies also here: to many radical Zionists, Arabs are Arabs, without distinction between the various sub-groups. Jordanians may feel a degree of kinship with their Palestinian &#8216;brethren&#8217; but only up to a point. Why should their country be made to pay the price of Zionism&#8217;s expansionist tendencies? Like I said above, it&#8217;s rewarding bad behaviour.</p>
<p>Zionism would feel forever emboldened by this &#8217;success&#8217;. Isn&#8217;t the Promised Land supposed to <i>&#8220;stretching from the Nile to the Euphrates, which today would take in a large chunk of Egypt, Israel and the occupied territories, the whole of Jordan, and a broad slice of western Iraq&#8221;</i>, as <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/05/israel5" rel="nofollow">Daniella Weiss points out?</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mad Zionist</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1461</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Zionist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1461</guid>
		<description>Nick, rational people are capable of understanding reason. Right now the Palestinians want to defeat Israel and replace it with Palestine. That will not happen. Very few are satisfied with a disjointed semi-state combining a chunk of West Bank, a section of Jerusalem and the separated  sliver of Gaza, so clearly we need a better solution.

If my plan were to be seriously proposed by the powers that be I am quite confident it would be viewed as beneficial by most Palestinians and Israelis alike.  It&#039;s the Jordanian government that would understandably require the most convincing, which is why it would be my recommendation that the Israelis and Jordanians meet directly to begin discussions on how to make it work logistically and financially. The Jordanian army on the East Bank would be needed to help facilitate the move of their brethren on the West Bank for obvious reasons. It would have to come in stages, incrementally if you will, so that it doesn&#039;t overwhelm the infrastructure.

Gaza would be the final piece. To relocate the Palestinians would require full cooperation from Egypt, Jordan and Israel alike, so all sides would need to be on the same page to make it work. It would not be easy, there would be those who would still fight any compromise among the ranks of the Palestinians and try to sabotage the process, so it would be absolutely critical to have Jordan and Egypt be completely on board to prevent such rogues from blowing up the process.

The first step is to begin dialog with both Jordan and the Palestinians in a giant, diplomatic summit. Unfortunately, no leaders have the courage to discuss anything more than the same failed, tired ideas that came out of Oslo over 20 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, rational people are capable of understanding reason. Right now the Palestinians want to defeat Israel and replace it with Palestine. That will not happen. Very few are satisfied with a disjointed semi-state combining a chunk of West Bank, a section of Jerusalem and the separated  sliver of Gaza, so clearly we need a better solution.</p>
<p>If my plan were to be seriously proposed by the powers that be I am quite confident it would be viewed as beneficial by most Palestinians and Israelis alike.  It&#8217;s the Jordanian government that would understandably require the most convincing, which is why it would be my recommendation that the Israelis and Jordanians meet directly to begin discussions on how to make it work logistically and financially. The Jordanian army on the East Bank would be needed to help facilitate the move of their brethren on the West Bank for obvious reasons. It would have to come in stages, incrementally if you will, so that it doesn&#8217;t overwhelm the infrastructure.</p>
<p>Gaza would be the final piece. To relocate the Palestinians would require full cooperation from Egypt, Jordan and Israel alike, so all sides would need to be on the same page to make it work. It would not be easy, there would be those who would still fight any compromise among the ranks of the Palestinians and try to sabotage the process, so it would be absolutely critical to have Jordan and Egypt be completely on board to prevent such rogues from blowing up the process.</p>
<p>The first step is to begin dialog with both Jordan and the Palestinians in a giant, diplomatic summit. Unfortunately, no leaders have the courage to discuss anything more than the same failed, tired ideas that came out of Oslo over 20 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1460</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1460</guid>
		<description>&quot;Nick, why the hatred and disrespect for arabs? Treating them like savages incapable of intellectualizing a positive scenario insults them on levels that border on racism.&quot; 

Nice try - but I&#039;m not going to take the bait. If you were to make the point that some on the left do deny the Palestinians agency in a way that is suspiciously close to paternalist racism, I would agree with you. However, there is nothing in what I said to justify accusing me of that. You however, refer to them as passive units to be acted on; speak, in essentialist terms, about what &quot;arab masses&quot; want / think. I imagine a few people can see the, shall we say, &quot;inconsistency&quot; in your thinking. 

Again - show me the evidence that there is any current support for your proposals, given we accept that the Palestinians are full human beings like the rest of us capable of formulating and evaluating choices. If there is no support, how are they going to take place without massive ethnic cleansing? 

All the narrow box stuff is a bit unfair. It&#039;s precisely because I&#039;m curious about your proposed solution that I ask you for evidence - any evidence - that it&#039;s feasible. If no-one in the West Bank wants it to happen, how do you propose to implement it short of recapitulating Bosnia? Or have you not told them about your ideas yet?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Nick, why the hatred and disrespect for arabs? Treating them like savages incapable of intellectualizing a positive scenario insults them on levels that border on racism.&#8221; </p>
<p>Nice try &#8211; but I&#8217;m not going to take the bait. If you were to make the point that some on the left do deny the Palestinians agency in a way that is suspiciously close to paternalist racism, I would agree with you. However, there is nothing in what I said to justify accusing me of that. You however, refer to them as passive units to be acted on; speak, in essentialist terms, about what &#8220;arab masses&#8221; want / think. I imagine a few people can see the, shall we say, &#8220;inconsistency&#8221; in your thinking. </p>
<p>Again &#8211; show me the evidence that there is any current support for your proposals, given we accept that the Palestinians are full human beings like the rest of us capable of formulating and evaluating choices. If there is no support, how are they going to take place without massive ethnic cleansing? </p>
<p>All the narrow box stuff is a bit unfair. It&#8217;s precisely because I&#8217;m curious about your proposed solution that I ask you for evidence &#8211; any evidence &#8211; that it&#8217;s feasible. If no-one in the West Bank wants it to happen, how do you propose to implement it short of recapitulating Bosnia? Or have you not told them about your ideas yet?</p>
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		<title>By: Gert</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1458</link>
		<dc:creator>Gert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:22:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1458</guid>
		<description>Mad Zionist:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;You obsessively seek to reap vengeance upon the Jews, make them suffer at any cost for all that they have done so wickedly. You want to take all they now have and possess and destroy it at any price, and why? Because you want a better life for those arabs whom you falsely claim to advocate for? No, not even a little. You advocate out of pure hatred and bitterness towards Jews, while the Palestinians are merely your prop, your tool, your toy to use in your personal quest to make the Jews pay in blood for how they have ruined the world as you see it.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

When lazy Zionists run out of arguments, there&#039;s always the doomsday weapon: &lt;i&gt;pull the anti-Semitism card!&lt;/i&gt; (Except that that weapon nowadays always fizzles - yawn.)

Past Jewish suffering doesn&#039;t absolve Zionists from their crimes, Mad Zionist. Increasingly your American brethren are beginning to see that too... Zionism&#039;s free pass has expired.

You don&#039;t need to make me aware of past persecution, tyranny, colonisation and imperialism: I&#039;m a principled anti-colonialist, anti-racist and anti-imperialist, hell-bent on preventing more of the (past) same in the present and future.

BTW, the American population is about 300 million, not 400 million. Most are descendants of settlers and immigrants (and not actual immigrants) and enjoy full rights in that country. European immigration policy is very similar to American.

You huff and you puff...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mad Zionist:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;You obsessively seek to reap vengeance upon the Jews, make them suffer at any cost for all that they have done so wickedly. You want to take all they now have and possess and destroy it at any price, and why? Because you want a better life for those arabs whom you falsely claim to advocate for? No, not even a little. You advocate out of pure hatred and bitterness towards Jews, while the Palestinians are merely your prop, your tool, your toy to use in your personal quest to make the Jews pay in blood for how they have ruined the world as you see it.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>When lazy Zionists run out of arguments, there&#8217;s always the doomsday weapon: <i>pull the anti-Semitism card!</i> (Except that that weapon nowadays always fizzles &#8211; yawn.)</p>
<p>Past Jewish suffering doesn&#8217;t absolve Zionists from their crimes, Mad Zionist. Increasingly your American brethren are beginning to see that too&#8230; Zionism&#8217;s free pass has expired.</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need to make me aware of past persecution, tyranny, colonisation and imperialism: I&#8217;m a principled anti-colonialist, anti-racist and anti-imperialist, hell-bent on preventing more of the (past) same in the present and future.</p>
<p>BTW, the American population is about 300 million, not 400 million. Most are descendants of settlers and immigrants (and not actual immigrants) and enjoy full rights in that country. European immigration policy is very similar to American.</p>
<p>You huff and you puff&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mad Zionist</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1457</link>
		<dc:creator>Mad Zionist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1457</guid>
		<description>Jews have been known as the &quot;wandering&quot; people, and for good reason. They have always been forced to flee, as have many other hundreds of millions and billions of people due to war, persecution, fear, or the desire to escape tyranny for political freedom. America was built on people fleeing other nations under harsh circumstances, beginning with Britain&#039;s tyranny, and remains such a destination today for millions of fleeing latinos.  

400,000,000 people now live in America, most with heart wrenching stories of fleeing terrible situations in other nations. Should America offer its 400,000,000 people to return where they originally came, with reparations and rights as full citizens, plus the right to be housed in either the very homes they fled, or have a new one provided by the host government? Should I return to the Russian and Austrian towns where my family fled from and demand to be given back my rightful home?

No, it is preposterous. The fact is, you and every single person that agrees with you has abjectly failed to come up with a single scenario that allows all people in the conflict to have a viable, prosperous, independent nation of their own, with real borders, real resources, a true military, and enough land in which to dwell comfortably. I offer turnkey solutions for lasting peace, you offer perpetual misery out of personal pettiness, spite, and blood lust.

You obsessively seek to reap vengeance upon the Jews, make them suffer at any cost for all that they have done so wickedly. You want to take all they now have and possess and destroy it at any price, and why? Because you want a better life for those arabs whom you falsely claim to advocate for?  No, not even a little. You advocate out of pure hatred and bitterness towards Jews, while the Palestinians are merely your prop, your tool, your toy to use in your personal quest to make the Jews pay in blood for how they have ruined the world as you see it.

If you honestly gave even a little bit of a damn about the Arabs you would feel ashamed of yourself for the way you are using and abusing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jews have been known as the &#8220;wandering&#8221; people, and for good reason. They have always been forced to flee, as have many other hundreds of millions and billions of people due to war, persecution, fear, or the desire to escape tyranny for political freedom. America was built on people fleeing other nations under harsh circumstances, beginning with Britain&#8217;s tyranny, and remains such a destination today for millions of fleeing latinos.  </p>
<p>400,000,000 people now live in America, most with heart wrenching stories of fleeing terrible situations in other nations. Should America offer its 400,000,000 people to return where they originally came, with reparations and rights as full citizens, plus the right to be housed in either the very homes they fled, or have a new one provided by the host government? Should I return to the Russian and Austrian towns where my family fled from and demand to be given back my rightful home?</p>
<p>No, it is preposterous. The fact is, you and every single person that agrees with you has abjectly failed to come up with a single scenario that allows all people in the conflict to have a viable, prosperous, independent nation of their own, with real borders, real resources, a true military, and enough land in which to dwell comfortably. I offer turnkey solutions for lasting peace, you offer perpetual misery out of personal pettiness, spite, and blood lust.</p>
<p>You obsessively seek to reap vengeance upon the Jews, make them suffer at any cost for all that they have done so wickedly. You want to take all they now have and possess and destroy it at any price, and why? Because you want a better life for those arabs whom you falsely claim to advocate for?  No, not even a little. You advocate out of pure hatred and bitterness towards Jews, while the Palestinians are merely your prop, your tool, your toy to use in your personal quest to make the Jews pay in blood for how they have ruined the world as you see it.</p>
<p>If you honestly gave even a little bit of a damn about the Arabs you would feel ashamed of yourself for the way you are using and abusing them.</p>
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		<title>By: Gert</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1456</link>
		<dc:creator>Gert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 15:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1456</guid>
		<description>Mad Zionist:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Think about transfer as relocation. Jews relocated by the tens of millions to Israel and America in the 20th century, today the arabs also seek to relocate to Israel by the millions while transferring a third of a million Jews out of Judea/Samaria, so if there is going to be any resolution to this conflict there WILL BE millions of people relocating no matter how you slice it.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

In 1947 - 1948 some 750,000 Palestinians were displaced under cover of war. Legally, as does any group that flees or is made to flee the theatre of war, they had the right to return after cessation of hostilities (see Article 49 of the Geneva Convention). This right was denied them. Today these people and their descendants are refugees, many (ironically) in refugee camps in the WB, others in refugee camps in Gaza, others in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria and have been for all that time (!). 

In 1967 another 250,000 people befell the same fate and they too are still waiting to return to the places they were expelled from.

You now want to complete the job by semi-legal means and for faked pseudo-humanitarian reasons. It&#039;s not gonna wash. Get over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mad Zionist:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Think about transfer as relocation. Jews relocated by the tens of millions to Israel and America in the 20th century, today the arabs also seek to relocate to Israel by the millions while transferring a third of a million Jews out of Judea/Samaria, so if there is going to be any resolution to this conflict there WILL BE millions of people relocating no matter how you slice it.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>In 1947 &#8211; 1948 some 750,000 Palestinians were displaced under cover of war. Legally, as does any group that flees or is made to flee the theatre of war, they had the right to return after cessation of hostilities (see Article 49 of the Geneva Convention). This right was denied them. Today these people and their descendants are refugees, many (ironically) in refugee camps in the WB, others in refugee camps in Gaza, others in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria and have been for all that time (!). </p>
<p>In 1967 another 250,000 people befell the same fate and they too are still waiting to return to the places they were expelled from.</p>
<p>You now want to complete the job by semi-legal means and for faked pseudo-humanitarian reasons. It&#8217;s not gonna wash. Get over it.</p>
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		<title>By: Madzionist</title>
		<link>http://falsedichotomies.com/2009/06/25/after-the-speeches-gabriel-levin/comment-page-1/#comment-1455</link>
		<dc:creator>Madzionist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=400#comment-1455</guid>
		<description>Nick, why the hatred and disrespect for arabs? Treating them like savages incapable of intellectualizing a positive scenario insults them on levels that border on racism. You go through great pains to imply they don&#039;t posses the &quot;necessities&quot; to understand the benefits of being rehoused east of the Jordan River, granted full Jordanian/Palestinian citizenship, compensated generously for undertaking the move to a nation of there own, a land where Palestinians already are the overwhelming majority where real and viable borders with all the resources necessary to succeed are already in place. This is a turnkey solution to terrible suffering on all sides.  

Regarding your calls for incrementalism, I have no problem at all with that, provided it is incrementally moving towards a realistic conclusion that works. Incrementally going off a cliff, as your scenario for a disjointed, untenable jigsaw puzzle of a state would be akin to, makes absolutely no sense. Incrementally moving towards a scenario where all sides win certainly does, and the sooner you get it in your mind that a solution outside of your conventional, narrow minded box the sooner you will realize I&#039;m the only person here actually offering a scenario that provides peace, security, prosperity, independence and dignity to all sides in the conflict.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick, why the hatred and disrespect for arabs? Treating them like savages incapable of intellectualizing a positive scenario insults them on levels that border on racism. You go through great pains to imply they don&#8217;t posses the &#8220;necessities&#8221; to understand the benefits of being rehoused east of the Jordan River, granted full Jordanian/Palestinian citizenship, compensated generously for undertaking the move to a nation of there own, a land where Palestinians already are the overwhelming majority where real and viable borders with all the resources necessary to succeed are already in place. This is a turnkey solution to terrible suffering on all sides.  </p>
<p>Regarding your calls for incrementalism, I have no problem at all with that, provided it is incrementally moving towards a realistic conclusion that works. Incrementally going off a cliff, as your scenario for a disjointed, untenable jigsaw puzzle of a state would be akin to, makes absolutely no sense. Incrementally moving towards a scenario where all sides win certainly does, and the sooner you get it in your mind that a solution outside of your conventional, narrow minded box the sooner you will realize I&#8217;m the only person here actually offering a scenario that provides peace, security, prosperity, independence and dignity to all sides in the conflict.</p>
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