In Praise of Liberal Incrementalism

2009 June 6
by Alex

Last week I was called a ‘Liberal Incrementalist’. Type the two words into Google and you’ll find that it’s not a widely used term. On reflection, though, it’s a useful term, especially when not used derogatively, and it needs to be insisted upon in opposition to those who think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can be solved tomorrow. Purveyors of this fantasy think that President Obama can just force Israel to unilaterally withdraw from the Occupied Territories and then everything will be ok. But Obama himself is a bit of a Liberal Incrementalist, and this is all to the good, especially if he gets his priorities right. 

Bilateralism is hardwired into the international consensus for solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. UN Resolution 242, still the definitive prescriptive document of the dispute, is driven by the notion of ‘land for peace’. In other words, a unilateral Israeli withdrawal would not solve the problem. It would have to be accompanied by a Palestinian agreement that the conflict is over. This is why all the Hamas talk about a ten-year truce (a ploy to avoid ever having to recognize Israel) is a non-starter. As for the current Israeli government’s rejectionism, it may be less genocidal than that of Hamas, but given the power imbalance, it is far more threatening to hopes of making a deal. At the moment, then, land-for-peace is not on the horizon.

Despite this reality, Obama is already shaping up to be the most activist president yet on Israel-Palestine. He has set out his stall by declaring absolute opposition to all settlement expansion. As a staunch Tel Avivi, my opposition to the settlement movement, whether in Efrat or Yizhar, cannot be overstated. At the same time, though, I think Obama may be making a tactical error by focusing on the settlements when there are other important areas in which to make progress.

As any cursory look over a West Bank hilltop will show you, settlements are demonstrably one of the greatest obstacles to peace between Israelis and Palestinians. If there is to be peace, the territory they take up must not be expanded. The Israeli government will also have to look the country’s citizens in the eyes and tell them that the settlement enterprise has come to an end. ‘Natural growth’ is a lie: recent growth in the settlement population has been far greater than the Israeli average, even when one takes into account that settlers tend to have more children than other Israelis.

The settlement blocs, however, aren’t the greatest obstacle to a peace agreement. Right or wrong, negotiations have frequently come to agreement over some kind of land-swap for the land covered by the blocs (8 per cent of the West Bank). Jerusalem and the Right of Return have been far more contested final-status issues, not to mention disputes surrounding topics such as resources and sovereignty. Why, then, is Obama focusing on the settlements?

Like Hector fiddling with his pupils’ balls in The History Boys, ongoing Israeli settlement expansion provides Obama with a tangible issue through which to demonstrate his seriousness to the Arab world. He has made less effort, for example, at getting Netanyahu to sign up to the two-state solution, and has even told Abbas that Bibi’s reticence is no excuse not to continue negotiations. And besides, even if Bibi were to suddenly declare himself a two-stater, it doesn’t mean he’d be able to meet minimum Palestinian demands.

American pressure on Israel vis-à-vis the settlements has been accompanied by pressure on the Arab world vis-à-vis normalization, although this has been surprisingly underreported in the media. If Obama can get Israel to stop building in the territories, he wants the Arab world to take concrete steps to demonstrate the seriousness of the Arab Peace initiative: El Al planes flying over Arab countries (which would cut the journey to India), Israeli consulates in Arab capitals, perhaps even allowing Israeli tourists in. These are lovely ideas, but Obama is mistaken if he thinks they would capture the Israeli public’s imagination. Most of the country does not seem that desperate (myself excluded) to eat hummus in Damascus.

Obama is using his nearly-unprecedented power to try and make the sides take incremental steps that are achievable even without a dedication to the two-state solution. The problem is that the political realities may still be too delicate for progress to be made, at least without the fall of Netanyahu’s government and the inevitable chaos that would bring. In the meantime, Obama’s is the way forward, and we can only hope that he brings this strategy to bear in other, perhaps more important areas, for example Gaza and Jerusalem. With patience and steadfastness, Obama’s forceful Liberal Incrementalism may yet be the catalyst that brings peace to the Middle East.

91 Comments leave one →
2009 June 7
Gabriel permalink

Obama’s approach makes a lot of sense to me. Demanding settlement expansion stop shows that A) He is serious about pressuring Israel B) The current Israeli government is not interested in peace (it will be unable to go on in current form). Israeli ministers looked pathetic trying to justify settlements. C) Settlements, unlike issues like ROR or Jerusalem, are indefensible.

Netanayhu’s government will fall or he will have to make a broad coalition with Kadima, Labor, and Meretz. If it falls, there will not be chaos…well, more than usual anyway. American pressure has toppled Israeli governments before. I was talking to a number of Jewish American friends and they all said pretty much the same thing- “Obama might be Israel’s last chance to save it from itself.”

2009 June 7

“Settlements are indefensible” I don’t want this to descend into a debate about international law, but let’s look at the Israeli rationale for a withdrawal for a second. If the west bank is considered disputed, and the reasons for withdrawing are demographic, and the desire to remain a democracy – then all settlements are not the issue – as long as enough territory can be ceded (and the rest annexed – including granting full citizens’ rights to everyone on that land) to remain a Jewish democracy, than settlements on the land not to be ceded are not an issue at all.

2009 June 7
Gabriel permalink

“If the west bank is considered disputed, and the reasons for withdrawing are demographic, ”

Except the West Bank is not considered disputed by anyone except some Israelis. Israel just can’t keep annexing land waiting for conditions that will never come to talk peace.

2009 June 7

Gabriel – there are people who say it belongs to A. There are others who say it belongs to B. That is, by definition, a dispute.

And it’s many more than just “some Israelis” – a large percentage of Israeli proponents of withdrawals still believe the land belongs to Israel, but that it is in Israel’s best interest to give parts or all of it up.

2009 June 7

LB:

So, it wasn’t disputed, then some Israelis claim it’s disputed and that makes it “disputed”?

I’m claiming that ownership of your house is disputed. I claim your house is mine. The ownership of your house is now disputed. Don’t forget to send me the keys now…

2009 June 7

Gert, come on. There is just a little more history in the region to back up claims to the land than the example you gave.

2009 June 7

LB:

The amount of land Israel may want to hold on to in the WB (without acceptable land swaps) is directly proportional to the amount of residual bad feeling (and thus source of potentially violent resistance) that will exist among Palestinians, after Final Status.

That’s why even talking about this ‘dispute’ is highly irresponsible: only those who want to hang on to the land are those who claim that that land is disputed.

The inability, unwillingness even, to take those considerations into account is, in Israeli public opinion, palpable to the point of being shocking.

In terms of land distribution the Two State ’solution’ is by definition an enormous injustice and one the Palestinians will have to swallow because they have absolutely no choice in the matter or power to influence the decision making process. Should the decision making process be influenced by the barrel of a very loaded Palestinian gun, the outcome would be different.

2009 June 8

Gert, First, I wasn’t even expressing my own opinion on the land and what should happen to it.

“only those who want to hang on to the land are those who claim that that land is disputed.”

Of course! Otherwise it’s not really disputed.

“In terms of land distribution the Two State ’solution’ is by definition an enormous injustice.”

Not to the Palestinians. 1. Israel has rights to the land, both throughout history and more modern (victory in an existential defensive wars in 1947-49 and then again in 1967, followed by the 3 NOs at Khartoum). The only reason to cede the land is the balance between demographics and remaining a Jewish state.. Bar none. If there were no danger of demographics ending the Jewish state, why not annex the land, grant everyone citizenship and get it over with? 2. In terms of land distribution then, using your argument – the border between the US and Canada is unjust – Canada has all that land with a fraction of the population in the US. Why not distribute the land there more equitably?

2009 June 8
Gabriel permalink

“The only reason to cede the land is the balance between demographics and remaining a Jewish state.”

I think you can make a good case for a strong moral reason as well.

“In terms of land distribution the Two State ’solution’ is by definition an enormous injustice and one the Palestinians will have to swallow because they have absolutely no choice in the matter or power to influence the decision making process. Should the decision making process be influenced by the barrel of a very loaded Palestinian gun, the outcome would be different.”

Huh? The two-state solution is an injustice because it will be a compromise rather than massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews? Boo-hoo. I often get the feeling that anti-Zionists are really just interested in perpetual conflict.

2009 June 8

Gabriel:

“Huh? The two-state solution is an injustice because it will be a compromise rather than massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews? Boo-hoo.”

It’s an injustice because of the ratio of population to amount of land. And Gabriel, stop the victimhood, pa-lease: after all the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and you have the gall to bring up ‘ethnic cleansing of Jews’.

This is what I find so thoroughly sickening about Zionism: this infinite capacity to turn every common sense argument on its head.

I hadn’t read Alex’ piece because ‘Liberal Incrementalism’ because it sounds like a particularly nasty kind of rash but here’s Obama:

“American pressure on Israel vis-à-vis the settlements has been accompanied by pressure on the Arab world vis-à-vis normalization, although this has been surprisingly underreported in the media. If Obama can get Israel to stop building in the territories, he wants the Arab world to take concrete steps to demonstrate the seriousness of the Arab Peace initiative: El Al planes flying over Arab countries (which would cut the journey to India), Israeli consulates in Arab capitals, perhaps even allowing Israeli tourists in. These are lovely ideas, [...]“

So Obama obtains the minimum of the minimum in terms of Israeli concessions and hops, the Arabs need to let El Al fly over Arab countries and start opening consulates left, right and centre??? And this is called ‘pressure on Israel’?

Dear Zios, you’ve got nothing to fear: keep on building until the WB is one giant settlement. Of course then you’ll have no choice but to deal with the Pesky Palis but there you go…

Peace process? Bah, humbug…

2009 June 8
Avram permalink

This is what I find so thoroughly sickening about anti-Zionism: this infinite capacity to turn every common sense argument on its head … As with most of your sentences, they always work well when flipped. You do have a talent Mr. Kite.

2009 June 8

Avram:

Your behaviour is now borderline trollism: making comment for the sole purpose of disrupting or ridiculing discussion.

Please try and stay on topic.

2009 June 8

Funny also how Gabriel refers to ‘massacres’, presumably meaning terrorist acts committed by e.g. Hamas. Most Zionists strongly object to that term being applied to the 1,400 dead in Gaza, yet the far smaller numbers of victims of even the most horrific terrorist attack would immediately be denounced as precisely that.

But I’m sure he’ll find a linguistic wormhole out of this…

2009 June 8

Gert – I suggest you read paragraph 2.

2009 June 8
Avram permalink

Gert:

I just really cannot believe someone who’s obviously educated continually makes sweeping generalizations. Not “some” or “a few”, you just claim “Zionist” etc … It’s rather sad, that’s why I continually bring you up (‘troll’) on it. I figured someone of your intelligence would get that.

“1,400 dead in Gaza”

Can you accurately break down the # of Hamas fighters killed by Israel vs civilians? I think if the final tally is accurate as you say (that is also in some dispute, be it by neutral sources or by Israelis) and a dominant # are civilians, then I’d call it unfortunately war crimes. If in fact though, as some #s suggest, a dominant amount killed were terrorists (and some were even killed by Hamas, as Fatah alleges), then I think it was sadly war.

2009 June 8

Gabriel – “I think you can make a good case for a strong moral reason as well. ”

My point is this – if tomorrow all American Jews made aliyah – I don’t see what would stop full annexation (and civil rights). Alternatively, if only 100,000 Palestinians lived in the West Bank and Gaza – what would stop annexation (and again, citizenship and full civil rights to all residents)?

2009 June 8

LB:

So you’re in favour of the One State solution but only with Jewish demographic dominance?

Rarely has the case for ethnocracy been made without too much ‘yeah but no but’ handwringing.

Thanks for making my case for me…

Avram:

Learn to read inter alea.

2009 June 8

Solution?

2009 June 8
Gabriel permalink

“Funny also how Gabriel refers to ‘massacres’, presumably meaning terrorist acts committed by e.g. Hamas.”

Do you even read the responses or do you just reach into your bag and pull out “anti-Zionist argument 417″? I was pretty clearly referring to what you wrote “Should the decision making process be influenced by the barrel of a very loaded Palestinian gun, the outcome would be different.” Yes, if the Palestinians had that type of power, there would be massacres of Jews. In fact, even the lefties like me in Israel realise that a sudden withdrawal to 1967 borders would be a disaster for Israel. There is this attempt by anti-Zionists and by many on the left in Europe to assign benign, liberal values to Palestinians. That if Israel just did A,B,C, there would be peace. Israelis, virtually all Israelis, know that that is horseshit. Just because you want to ignore the Imams in Gaza comparing Jews to AIDS and the women winning elections because they sent their kids off to kill Jews, doesn’t mean Israelis are unaware of this segment of the Palestinian world.

“Most Zionists strongly object to that term being applied to the 1,400 dead in Gaza, yet the far smaller numbers of victims of even the most horrific terrorist attack would immediately be denounced as precisely that.”

First of all, I do love how you take out the fighters. “1,400 dead” is meant to imply innocence to everyone killed which is absurd. Anti-Zionists do this a lot. “X thousand Palestinians have been killed in Gaza over the last 2 years” and so on. Today, 5 Palestinians were killed in Gaza and they were killed because they tried to attack Israeli troops. Still, they become innocent civilians to the Gerts of the world. Second, you just have no idea what you are talking about. To massacre means to kill indiscriminately. So, if I walk down the halls of a school shooting 15 people, it is a massacre but if I drop a bomb on military target and miss and kill 5000 people, it isn’t. The word massacre is not about a larger number, it is about intent and the manner in which the killing is done. Israel does not kill indiscriminately no matter what you so desperately want to believe. Some Israeli soldiers may very well have committed war crimes, but that still isn’t a massacre. It just sounds loathsome so you want to use it for Israel.

2009 June 8
Avram permalink

“Do you even read the responses or do you just reach into your bag and pull out “anti-Zionist argument 417″?”

I think you’ve figured out one irritating issue with trying to have a civil conversation with Gert … Alas, I will keep on trying as there does seem to be an intelligent person behind other screen, who at times can put down his “Anti-Zionist” persona and try and debate things interestingly enough.

2009 June 9

Obama is actually emboldening Israel’s political right whenever he makes Jews feel nervous about America’s role as Israel’s protector. I said on my blog that Obama may be the key to Israel shedding it’s unhealthy dependency (obediency?) and behaving like an independent nation, acting in its own interests, and not making concessions to arabs that work to America’s advantage. Israel absorbs the misery of islamic terror while America postures with their “special friends” in Saudi Arabia… the time to cut the cord is long overdo.

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

“Israel shedding it’s unhealthy dependency (obediency?) and behaving like an independent nation, acting in its own interests, and not making concessions to arabs that work to America’s advantage.”

So, what is in Israel’s best interests? This is something that fascinates me about the Israeli right-the complete lack of any long-term plan. There was a Likudnik on YNet the other today finally giving their “alternative to a 2-state solution” which was annexation of 60% of the West Bank and then Palestinians confederation with Egypt and Jordan. (Computer is too slow to link, but look it up). Seriously, how can this person think that Palestinians or the Arab world would ever accept that? The truth is that there are only two-options. Two-states or no state. There was another fascinating article on Haaretz yesterday where a settler leader said that he would prefer to have no Israeli state and have “Jewish land” than to have an Israeli state. In other words, a hill near Hebron is more important to many of these people than the security of a Jewish state. (Never mind the insanity of thinking that they would be able to stay wherever they wanted in a Palestinian state). Likud is forever talking about not giving up land to endanger Israel but giving up land is truly the only way to save Israel. Do you think that Palestinians are suddenly going to leave? To give up? To accept being treated like shit? This is why Likud doesn’t talk about a vision, because there isn’t one. It’s all about stalling and hoping something happens.

Israelis also don’t understand the shift in American opinion both among Jews and elsewhere. There is staunch support for Israel but people are sick of Israel doing everything they can to avoid peace. No, it’s not as if Palestinians want peace either, but people just are tired of the whole thing. Tired of Israel fighting pointless wars, tired of governments trying to blame everything on something else, tired of it all. And MadZionist, Israel needs America. It’s not just the billions in aid or the billions in advanced military equipment. It’s the international cover without which Israel would be completely isolated. If the US moves away from Israel, the EU will move even further away, the cold peace Israel has now with its neighbours will be gone, and Israel will be finished. It’s the change in attitudes of American Jews. This younger generation is a post-racial one. Their friends are black, Chinese, Hispanic, white, Jewish, and everyone else. The idea of Jews controlling an apartheid-system in the West Bank because of their reading of some religious document is repugnant to all but the small percentage of people who are orthodox. What will Israel do with tens of billions of dollars less a year, outdated military equipment, facing worldwide boycotts (and likely mass emigration of the non-religious) ?I mean, do you seriously think that Israel could survive more that a few years under that system? And for what? So settlers can live on hilltops and shoot Palestinians without repercussions? America is trying to save Israel from its own insanity.

2009 June 9
Avram permalink

Interesting post Gabriel as always. A few small issues though:

1) “This is something that fascinates me about the Israeli right”
- You shouldn’t be ‘Gert’ing us, a few on the right are like this yes. Then again, a few on the left with their ‘blind optimism’ of a binational state are just as bad.

2) “America is trying to save Israel from its own insanity.” – I don’t think it has anything to do with America trying to save ‘us’, more like them trying to save themselves wrt their relations with the Arab world and their lack of desire to be involved in any regional complications (war) in the future.

3) re: The relationship with Israel/US. It’s been essential since 1973 but I would hope Israel wouldn’t ‘fall flat on her face’ if they were to say develop their warming ties with India/China/Japan ahead of those with the US. Who knows, just semantics.

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

“1) “This is something that fascinates me about the Israeli right”
- You shouldn’t be ‘Gert’ing us, a few on the right are like this yes. Then again, a few on the left with their ‘blind optimism’ of a binational state are just as bad.”

There is a difference though. This is the platform of Likud the biggest party on the right. There is no major party in Israel that advocates a bi-national state. Still, Yisrael Beiteinu is right wing and actually quite a bit more pragmatic in regards to the 2-state solution and half of Likud’s members even acknowledge the need for a 2-state solution.

“America is trying to save Israel from its own insanity.” – I don’t think it has anything to do with America trying to save ‘us’, more like them trying to save themselves wrt their relations with the Arab world and their lack of desire to be involved in any regional complications (war) in the future.”

I agree that the intent of the US is hardly pure (whose intent is?).

“3) re: The relationship with Israel/US. It’s been essential since 1973 but I would hope Israel wouldn’t ‘fall flat on her face’ if they were to say develop their warming ties with India/China/Japan ahead of those with the US. Who knows, just semantics.”

It would. It is of no benefit for any of those countries to develop the type of ties Israel has with the U.S. and really of very little benefit to have ties beyond military deals. I’m not saying American/Israeli ties are going to disappear or anything, just that the carte blanche the U.S. has given Israel over most of the last 40 years is gone, probably forever.

2009 June 9

Gabriel – just to say that your comments are frequently first-class, and I hope you don’t mind that I quoted you in a facebook – erm – debate today. Keep doing your thing…

2009 June 9

Gabriel:

“Yes, if the Palestinians had that type of power, there would be massacres of Jews. In fact, even the lefties like me in Israel realise that a sudden withdrawal to 1967 borders would be a disaster for Israel. There is this attempt by anti-Zionists and by many on the left in Europe to assign benign, liberal values to Palestinians.”

So in essence you deny that that Israel has been able to colonise a very significant part of the WB purely because of its own vastly superior firepower? And that the Palestinians could possibly have stopped that if they had the firepower to resist it?

Calls himself a leftie but can’t even understand the basic principle of ‘balance of power’ and how all through the ages colonists and imperialists have gotten their way precisely from the power of a loaded gun. Israel is no different, from its inception right through to today.

There is no anti-Zionist attempt at “assigning liberal values to Palestinians”. Unlike racists like you we don’t feel the need to categorise them: theirs is simply a liberation struggle and the second Intifada nothing more than an understandable reaction of frustration. They don’t have to be ‘liberal’ for me, that’s THEIR business, not YOURS. What’s liberal about today’s Israeli Government, by the way?

Israel could have withdrawn suddenly by means of the ’settlers out, army in‘ principle: without loss of territory or security (quite the contrary) and sending out a clear signal. It doesn’t. And it won’t…

Now a whole new range of negotiations will start about the ’settlement freeze’. Talk about function creep.

“So, if I walk down the halls of a school shooting 15 people, it is a massacre but if I drop a bomb on military target and miss and kill 5000 people, it isn’t.”

You don’t realise just how ridiculous you sound here.

You, a leftie? Then quit defending the indefensible…

“It just sounds loathsome so you want to use it for Israel.”

I’m not sure I’ve actually used that term ever in the I-P context. I believe I haven’t. But Israel is thoroughly loathsome, that’s true.

2009 June 9

Gabriel:

I see you now want to try and debate Mad Zionist, well, good luck with that.

I’ve tried it for years and rarely have I come across someone with a more inverted world view. According to Madze, Netanyahu if a leftist (I kid you not).

Still, the points you make there make sense.

2009 June 9
Avram permalink

It seems that more and more Israelis are gripped by this ‘Obama’ fear … It’s really getting pathetic:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1244371046569&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Gert,

you & MadZionist seem to be good balancers for each other.

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

Thanks Alex. Feel free to quote me at will. (I also can make up sayings that make people think but that really mean nothing if you’d like something like”A man can drown in a pond as well as in a lake”. I found the Ynet link about the proposed rightest alternative to the 2-state solution.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3724134,00.html

And the Haaretz story…

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091455.html

Both well worth a read.

2009 June 9

Avram:

Mad Zionist would consider Gabriel to be a Marxist. And a self-hating Jew for opposing settlements. A ‘death-cult’ appeaser for not supporting transfer.

You? Probably centre-Left.

Get real.

2009 June 9

Gabriel, with all do respect, you are almost the perfect parody of the well intended but naive liberal Zionist who defers to American power for righting what’s wrong with Israel. I encourage you to read the post at my site, for it is with you and those who think as you do I have in mind.

Your points about Israel having no options but a two state solution or extinction are priceless, dark comedy. I can’t laugh because it saddens me, but at the same time I feel a sense of comical irony to the failure of your insistence that the way to find lasting and successful peace is to concede, concede, concede until the mortal enemy appreciates the gesture so much they agree to stop fighting and live side-by-side in peace.

Now, the only part of my plan and the plan of others on the right you seemingly dislike is that annexing the land and relocating the arabs east of the Jordan will offend arab sensibilities. Well, guess what… they are already offended and will continue to be offended as long as they are not the victorious conquerers of Israel. Stop worrying about “offending”, and start thinking what is in the best interests of the Jewish State and her people.

Waiting for the world’s kindness and mercy to save the Jews from tragedy has failed for thousands of years, so please stop believing that this one time will be somehow different if we just give it a chance…It won’t and it WILL end badly for the Jews if you let them.

2009 June 9
Avram permalink

I’m interested Gert, how do you see Gabriel and I politically?

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

“Now, the only part of my plan and the plan of others on the right you seemingly dislike is that annexing the land and relocating the arabs east of the Jordan will offend arab sensibilities.”

Umm, you start off right and then end horribly. What offends me is that moving millions of people forcibly for ethnic reasons is horribly immoral and sickening. Forget about practical terms (Arabs would not be “offended”, there would be an all-out war which Israel would have no support anywhere in the world-rightly so and would ultimately lose), you can’t pick up people,uproot them from their homes, and deport them to some foreign country. It’s what horrible, immoral dictatorships do.

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

“Waiting for the world’s kindness and mercy to save the Jews from tragedy has failed for thousands of years, so please stop believing that this one time will be somehow different if we just give it a chance…It won’t and it WILL end badly for the Jews if you let them.”

Another thing I find interesting is the selectivity in remembering Jewish history. Obviously, there are many complexities of Jewish history, but there are two dominant themes. One, MadZionist mentions, is antisemitism everywhere Jews have lived. Jews have been persecuted, beaten, and murdered throughout our history. However, there is a second strand that appears over and over again and that every so often Jews can’t help themselves and they go completely self-destructive. From the Golden calf, Moses, Saul and David Jews have been incredibly self-destructive. From Bar Kokhba through Shabbatai Tzvi to the backing of Czar Aleksander over Napoleon, Jews have done things that were not in their best interests. (and yes, Jews have a strong messianic streak as well). The settlement project from the beginning is one of these things. Instead of sitting on the land and waiting until Arab public opinion changed (which it has) to the point where land for peace was possible, they built settlements and made the lives of the Palestinians miserable in what was, and is, largely a racist enterprise. Now, instead of being able to swap land for peace, Israel has put itself in this absurd bind where every government is beholden and terrified of the settlers.

2009 June 9

Gabriel, you seem to have racism in reverse. Jews building homes and being persecuted for it simply because they are Jewish is what’s racist. Ethnically cleansing thousands of Jews from there homes in Gaza just because they were Jewish was racism. Jews in Gaza were peaceful, productive, and endured horrible ethnic/religious persecution, only to then be expelled because they didn’t believe Mohammed was the one true prophet.

It is disputed land because Jews claim it but arabs want it for themselves. Jews have acquired more power and have the strength to annex the land and make it a Jewish nation. Arabs want the opposite but lack the might do do so militarily, so they have opted for jihad and terrorism instead. The Jews can either choose to let the terrorism continue to fester at their feat, surrender and retreat, or take the land and transfer the arabs to a more suitable place they can call home and have peace.

2009 June 9

Gabriel, along the lines of what you said about Jewish self-destructiveness, this is a very interesting piece. It is, however, in Hebrew – and I have not, unfortunately, found a translation into English.

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/1,7340,L-3389011,00.html

2009 June 9

Oh, and Gabe, please can the condescending “what I find interesting about the right” stuff. You can have a dialogue with me directly without all that passive aggressive haughtiness. Though I may be “one of those on the right” you do not agree with, I am still civil in my discourse and don’t need to be referred to in a collective 3rd person. I realize sometimes it’s appropriate to generalize, we all do, but come on… it’s making me nauseous.

2009 June 9

Both Alex and Gabriel hint at this, but this is a point that needs to be spelled out: the settlements must go because they are morally wrong.

Forget barriers to peace; Alex is right to point out that there are far bigger roadblocks than a few hilltop villages. The settlements are a barrier to democracy – to Israeli democracy.

The very existence of the settlements undermines the ethical core of the Zionist project, while the radicalisation and division they are leading combine with the weakness of our electoral system to create a slow poison that is corroding the rule of law and the respect for human rights in the country.

(All this divisive propaganda, “ha ‘am im” this or that – what does it tell you other than that if you’re not “with” the cause dy jour, then you’re not part of the “‘am”? Hah.)

Threats to a democratic way of life, from dispersing peace protestors with fire hoses to shutting down Palestinian cultural events to passing ridiculous laws about not displaying hametz in public in case some religious people are “offended” by it, have been eating away at our liberties ever since the settlement in the WB was put on steroids in the 1980’s.

The right is reifying a palpable imjustice into some sacred end that needs to be defended at all costs, including the state itself. If it’s not careful, it’ll get what it wished for.

2009 June 9
Gabriel permalink

“In what may be his most controversial suggestion, Peled recommends intervening in American congressional races to weaken Obama and asking American Jewish donors not to contribute to Democratic congressional candidates. He predicted that this would result in Democratic candidates pressuring Obama to become more pro-Israel. ”

Avram, just read the piece you linked to and it gave me a laugh. If the Israeli government were to interfere in the U.S. in any way, there would be such a massive reaction. Also, what Peled and Likud does not seem to understand, is that Obama is speaking for most American Jews. Something like 95% of non-religious American Jews voted for Obama for a reason and they will not vote Republican because Likud wants them too. They care so much more about the U.S. than they do about Israel.

“Though I may be “one of those on the right” you do not agree with, I am still civil in my discourse and don’t need to be referred to in a collective 3rd person.”

I was not referring to you but rather what you represent. And I do not find it civil to be called a “parody of the well intended but naive liberal Zionist”.

“Jews in Gaza were peaceful, productive, and endured horrible ethnic/religious persecution, only to then be expelled because they didn’t believe Mohammed was the one true prophet.”

I have absolutely no idea how you can possibly believe this. I have met Jews who were evacuated from Gaza and they sound like racists all over the world do. “We got along so great when we were paying them 4 cents to do a day’s work and we could control their lives completely”. (The West Bank is largely secular non-ideological settlers. Nobody went to Gaza who didn’t know exactly what they were going for.) They were evacuated because of Sharon’s plan of disengagement. (Which, in typical Israeli faction was done to maximize the benefit to Hamas and humiliate Fatah. Even if Sharon had decided unilaterally to leave, set up some fake meetings with Abbas where it looks like negotiations played a major part. You know, show Palestinians that negotiations and not terror lead to better conditions. Israel is all stick and no carrot. Argh!)

“The right is reifying a palpable injustice into some sacred end that needs to be defended at all costs, including the state itself. If it’s not careful, it’ll get what it wished for.”

From the article I linked on Haaretz earlier…

“Elitzur proclaimed that the Land of Israel is more important than the State of Israel, and a Jew’s right to live any place in his land is more important to him than the desire for sovereignty. In order to make this concept more concrete, he compared the Land of Israel to his wife and the state to a cleaning woman. “I married my wife, not the cleaning woman,” he said. ”

There are more and more of these people. People who are not interested in democracy, people who are actively opposed to freedoms, and people who simply don’t care about the survival of Israel as a country and are only interested in their twisted 17th century version of Judaism. Government after government has cravenly given in to these people. You don’t want women’s pictures on buses? Fine. You want to make sure nobody can get married except through the rabbinate? Fine. You want to illegally build on Palestinian land and burn down their fields? Sure, go ahead. We’ll watch your back. You want to tell Tel Aviv how its stores should be run? Well, go ahead. This inequality can be exemplified by two recent cases. One, the Jewish man who, on film, shot two Palestinians. Charges were dismissed. At the same time, the Palestinians who killed a Jewish terrorist after he ran out of bullets are being charged. Just reverse this for a second and imagine what would happen. Palestinian man shoots Israelis on film-What, life in prison? Israelis kill Palestinian after he ran out bullets? Hero. Occupation is corrupting. Israeli law is a series of different laws for different people.

2009 June 10

Gabe, you could really use some introspection. Spewing hatred and bigotry against religious Jews as the centerpiece of a tirade against hatred and bigotry is simply exquisite hypocrisy.

2009 June 10

BTW, Gabe, when I brilliantly referred to you a parody of “well intended, naive liberal Zionists” I at least mentioned you were “well intended”. That’s certainly more civil than you have been towards me and others whom you disagree with.

I have met Jews who were evacuated from Gaza and they sound like racists all over the world do.

So, these Gazan Jews sounded just like you? Pity, the ones I have known were good and kind people who just wanted to live in peace without jihadis trying to kill their family. Oh, but probably to you anyone observing Judaism is a Nazi with blood on their hands and deserves ethnic cleansing of the most brutal order… it’s so hard to remember that peace and tolerance in your world means exterminating Jews who have the audacity to build houses where Jews have no right to live because, well, because they are Jewish of course.

2009 June 10
Gabriel permalink

“Spewing hatred and bigotry against religious Jews as the centerpiece of a tirade against hatred and bigotry is simply exquisite hypocrisy.”

This is nonsense. I do not hate religious Jews. In fact, many members of my immediate family are orthodox and I grew up that way as well. I do hate people who use “mutual respect” as a way to enforce their opinions on others and I hate people who mistreat others in the name of religion. I also know that the religious idea of “observing Judaism” is ludicrous. Judaism, like all religions, has evolved enormously and Judaism evolved for thousands of years. What the ultra-Orthodox consider “real Judaism” is just a particular brand of religious Judaism that comes frozen, except to get progressively more strict, from Eastern Europe in the 17th and 18th century. The Judaism of say 14th century Spain or 6th century France or 1st century Judea are very unlike each other.

“Pity, the ones I have known were good and kind people who just wanted to live in peace without jihadis trying to kill their family.”

This is like saying “I was trying to watch my beautiful new HD TV without being interrupted” without mentioning that you walked into your neighbours house and stole it. As I said earlier, I have sympathy for many West Bank settlers-people who have moved there for financial reasons or government incentives. Nobody, nobody, moved to Gaza for anything other than extremist views. The few thousand Jews who lived in Gaza lived in luxury while Palestinians lived in squalor. Yes, many of them wanted “peace” but it’s the type of peace Hamas wants. One side lording its power over the other. That is not peace. That is domination. (The people who left Gaza remind me most of the way some people talk about Jews in Muslim lands. “Jews lived in peace with their Muslim neighbours”. When one side is treated as inferior, not given the same rights, and are suffering, it’s easy for the other side to pretend everything is hunky dory.)

“Oh, but probably to you anyone observing Judaism is a Nazi with blood on their hands and deserves ethnic cleansing of the most brutal order”

Surely, the deportation of millions of Palestinians from the lands their families have lived on for hundreds of years to a country they have no attachment to, the very act you support above, , is infinitely more brutal than moving a few thousand Jewish settlers who had lived in Gaza for a couple of decades back to Israel? Why are right-wingers so eager to invoke Nazism and the Holocaust? The yellow stars at the evacuation of Gaza. Calling police taking down outposts Nazis. Perhaps it is because they see the world in terms of black and white and dehumanization of the enemy, “the Nazis” is something they need to justify their actions. I mean do you seriously think that liberals and seculars want to exterminate Jews?

2009 June 10

“Do you seriously think that liberals and seculars want to exterminate Jews?”

Do I believe that the anti-Zionist left could and would? Absolutely, as there is no differentiation between anti-Zionism and Antisemitism. In fact, you personally, though naively and unwittingly perhaps, are contributing to the dehumanization process that can and does lead to Jewish genocide.

2009 June 10

Gabriel –

“Something like 95% of non-religious American Jews voted for Obama for a reason and they will not vote Republican because Likud wants them too.”

You’re missing the point. The real point is not necessarily to get Obama to be more pro-Israel, but to get him to butt out. If the U.S. sticks its nose in Israeli affairs, then Israel will do the same to the U.S. Before you jump out with the wildcard of American aid, Peled also calls to end that.

“I have met Jews who were evacuated from Gaza and they sound like racists all over the world do…The West Bank is largely secular non-ideological settlers.”

Yes, most settlers today are secular. Not non-ideological. This is a myth that has been invented in order to propagate the myth that evacuation will be easy, and will face relatively little resistance if the settlers can just be paid off.

Regarding Gaza, however, suffice it to say that I have FAR more personal experience with Gush Katif than anyone else here. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You may have met a bunch of racists. Racists live everywhere – your extrapolation onto the whole community is false. By and large, the community in Gaza were far, far more relaxed, less political, and less in everyone’s face than the west bank. Further, many evictees still keep in touch with their former employees who still live in places like Khan Yunis, Deir El-Balah, Rafah, and the Muwasi. They must hate them very much.

“You know, show Palestinians that negotiations and not terror lead to better conditions. Israel is all stick and no carrot. Argh!”

Again. No. Sticks are to be met with fire to burn those sticks. It’s not negotiations that should lead to better conditions. It’s simply no murder. Period. No terrorism leads to no need for methods to prevent terrorism. Carrots are for eating.

This is in the same vein of the wonderful sounding, yet horribly false adage that “peace is made with enemies.” Peace is made between people who don’t want to be enemies.

2009 June 10
Gabriel permalink

“Again. No. Sticks are to be met with fire to burn those sticks. It’s not negotiations that should lead to better conditions. It’s simply no murder. Period. No terrorism leads to no need for methods to prevent terrorism. Carrots are for eating.”

This is ridiculous and completely untrue. Israel will annex Palestinian land regardless of what happens. Post-Oslo was one of the biggest settlement expansion periods in Israel’s history. In fact, suicide bombing didn’t really take off until the mid-90’s. By that point, Israel had been building settlements at increasing rates for 20 years. Of course, I am sure you could justify those by saying that Israel knew there would be violence in the future so had to build settlements. If you look at the peaks and valleys of Palestinian terrorist attacks versus Israeli settlement activity, there is zero connection. Israel just keeps taking land no matter what is happening. Why should the Palestinians be the only ones forced to make sacrifices? The idea that if Palestinians stopped terrorism tomorrow, Israel would suddenly make a just peace is as insane as the idea that a halt to settlements would suddenly be the end of Palestinian terrorism. It will never happen. The people who ask for it know it will never happen and therefore ask for it specifically so they never have to do anything and can act like it’s not their fault.

Jews are lighting Palestinian fields on fire. Israel is taking Palestinian land, Israel is erecting more and more road blocks that do nothing except make Palestinian life harder and all you and the right in Israel can say is “stop terrorism” as if terrorism is the cause of all of Israel’s brutality towards the Palestinians.

Well, if Israel isn’t willing to stop settlers beating up innocent people and stealing land why should Palestinians give up anything? It’s just so dishonest. Also, the fact that you say “No terrorism leads to no need for methods to prevent terrorism.” is even more absurd. Settlements do not prevent terrorism. The vast majority of the things Israel does that make Palestinians miserable have nothing to do with terrorism. Some army general just stands up and says “security” and you just nod and say “yes, that’s why we have to put up this roadblock between Palestinian villages and make people wait hours to get through to see their families.” or “Yes, preventing lentils and macaroni from entering Gaza is keeping Israel safe”.

“You’re missing the point. The real point is not necessarily to get Obama to be more pro-Israel, but to get him to butt out. If the U.S. sticks its nose in Israeli affairs, then Israel will do the same to the U.S.”

I am afraid you are missing the point. 1)The U.S./Israeli relationship is not equal. The U.S. doesn’t need Israel in the least and without the U.S., Israel is finished. Israel will not survive long-term without the U.S. money, military, and political backing. It just won’t. 2) The U.S. is Israel’s sponsor. What Israel does effects the U.S. so the U.S. has every right to interfere. 3) The idea that “U.S. is sticking its nose in Israeli affairs” is ridiculous. Every U.S. government ever has stuck their nose into Israel’s business. Countries like Israel don’t get to decide everything by themselves. Very few countries do and no country so reliant on another ever will. The U.S. ordered them out of the Sinai over 50 years ago. The U.S. gave Israel emergency help in 1973 (where was the “butt out of our business” then?) and has been involved constantly ever since. 4) American Jews have a right to say what goes on in Israel. They have given and raised billions of dollars for the country, they have used enormous political capital to help Israel, and they want a change. 5) The U.S. sticking it’s nose into Israel’s affairs matters. Israel cannot just ignore the U.S. because their leaders know they need it. Israel sticking its nose into US’ business would be laughable. What did this Likud idiot say? To urge American Jews to not give money to Democrats? You think an American Jew living in L.A. or NY (Jewish areas are almost all very safe Dem. seats anyway) is going to think “well, I am pro-abortion, pro-government regulation, pro-gun control, pro-universal health care, etc… but I am going to fund a Republican who goes against all my core beliefs because Likud doesn’t like what Obama is doing with Israel?????” Israel is not even a top-5 issue for the vast majority of Jews. (I think it came 7th on the American Jews’ lists)

“Further, many evictees still keep in touch with their former employees who still live in places like Khan Yunis, Deir El-Balah, Rafah, and the Muwasi. They must hate them very much.”

So, you don’t think there were any plantation owners who kept in contact with their slaves? Maybe the Palestinians think that this person might be a good contact for a possible job in Israel or if they need to be rescued or something. Keeping in contact with people is meaningless when the entire idea of the Gaza settlements was racist. You cannot take away the absurdly unequal, the inherently racist ideal of the settler enterprise. I’m sure you’ve met many sweet settlers and I know some that are nice, but I also know homophobes, racists, and other bigots who are sweet when I speak to them. I’m sure many Hamas members are great people if you get to know them.You have a ridiculous fantasy that pre-intifada co-existence was great or even acceptable. I hear Israelis talk about this bullshit all the time. The intifadas came about because the situation was intolerable for the Palestinians.

“Racists live everywhere – your extrapolation onto the whole community is false.”

The difference is this. Choosing to live on stolen land where you will get infinitely superior treatment simply because of your ethnicity is inherently racist. Many, many Israelis would never live in settlements as a moral choice. Yes, there are racists everywhere, but not always in equal number. (Incidentally, you are really hearing how racist the settler leadership is when they speak about Obama. It’s disgusting.)

2009 June 10

Settlements are not about security. I never said that. They might be stupid but they are not wrong. Israel has a right to the land – any withdrawal, as I said before, would be for demographic reasons alone.

US/Israel – you do realize you have just basically said that Israel has no right to exist as a truly independent state. Israel CAN exist without the money. The money is 4% of the budget. Israel is not as weak as you think. Right now, for example, I believe the US has higher unemployment than Israel.

I don’t want any sponsor – US or otherwise. I want independent sovereignty. No one has a “right” to interfere. So what if every other government has done it – they’re all equally wrong.

“Countries like Israel don’t get to decide everything by themselves.” Yes, they do. That’s what soveignty and independence mean.

The U.S. helped Israel in the past because of the Cold War. If there had been no Cold War, the Soviets would not have funded the Arabs – and Israel would need the U.S. funding as much.

Anyway, that funding comes with strings today. I don’t want the strings and I don’t want the funding.

American Jews have ZERO right to what goes on in that country. They want to – they can move. That’s all. Money, in this sense, is cheap. And once they give the money – they’re done, they don’t risk anything. No right. Period. Ever. None.

“the entire idea of the Gaza settlements was racist.”

Again, wow, so you’ve met a bunch of people you didn’t like – racists, etc. Believe when I say – you don’t know the people and I do. You want to think they’re racists – I don’t care anymore, since it seems you’ve made up your mind about them anyway.

Stolen land? Not even getting into this. See above though – land is ours. Only reason to leave it would be demographic.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

““Countries like Israel don’t get to decide everything by themselves.” Yes, they do. That’s what soveignty and independence mean. ”

Then we’ve never really been indepedent …

2009 June 10

Gabe, the more you write the longer the rope you hang yourself with. At this point, your seething, ignorant, bogus libels against Jews and Israel negate any of your comparatively hollow denials of Judeophobia. You are a sad and mindless caricature of the self-loathing Jew, and I am truly sorry for you.

2009 June 10

so you’ve met a bunch of people you didn’t like – racists, etc. Believe when I say – you don’t know the people and I do.

Racist is as racist does.

If you live on land that was confiscated from someone based on their ethnicity, in a settlement that is restricted to denizens of a certain ethnicity, protected by (ethnic) military force from people who are of a different ethnicity, and all the while maintain that you have a morally superior right to do what you’re doing and hurt who you’re hurting, then you’re a racist.

You’re a racist when you get up in the morning in your house that was built on somebody else’s field; you’re a racist when you pay vulnerable members of a different ethnic group starvation wages to cultivate your confiscated fields; you’re a racist when you bring up your children to think that all this is somehow OK.

It doesn’t matter if you’re a white farmer in Zimbabwe or a settler in Gaza – you’re the same kind of racist.

Of course, you may also be a vegetarian, love animals and volunteer with disabled children in your community.

But you’d still be a racist, which means you have no appreciable moral center and no capacity for ethical consistency – and are therefore not competent to run my country.

It’s not about hating settlers or being biased against them, it’s a pretty logical argument that goes “oppression=bad morals=bad government”, that’s all.

2009 June 10

If you live on land that was confiscated from someone based on their ethnicity, in a settlement that is restricted to denizens of a certain ethnicity, protected by (ethnic) military force from people who are of a different ethnicity, and all the while maintain that you have a morally superior right to do what you’re doing and hurt who you’re hurting, then you’re a racist.

By this definition, you consider every Jew that’s ever lived in Israel, and ever will live in Israel, a racist. Racists from the biblical times of Joshua through to this very day, and for all the rest of eternity, too. The Land of Israel always was, is and will be claimed by others who consider the Jews to be illegitimate land grabbers. Every last inch of land a Jew has ever occupied in this land has been in dispute, every last building or home a Jew has ever built, every last field a Jew has ever grown a crop from, has always and forever been the result of Jews taking what doesn’t rightfully belong to them.

Yet, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that you consider yourself the least bigoted or racist person one could ever hope to find. A true pillar of tolerance, an activist of peace and goodwill, a pacifist who cannot bear all the suffering, violence and poverty in the world, and one who decries all forms of anti-Semitism. If only those land-grabbing Jews stayed out of Palestine the world will be one step closer to that humanitarian utopia of your dreams.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

“you’re a racist when you pay vulnerable members of a different ethnic group starvation wages to cultivate your confiscated fields;”

Oh no – I wonder how many more racists were just added to the US considering the ‘wages’ they pay the Mexican immigrants …

2009 June 10

I wonder how many more racists were just added to the US considering the ‘wages’ they pay the Mexican immigrants

Thousands upon thousands. Millions, maybe. And?

Not sure which buttons you were trying to press, but you’re going to have to be a bit more creative if you’re going to annoy me. Back to Trolling 101 for you, mate.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

ha ha, who’s the troll? Man, do you know Gert by any chance?

I just think your definition of racism kinda misses the point that it’s about race. I know it’s just semantics but what you’ve defined (at least what I quoted) is different, but if it’s solely based on an ‘ethnic group’, then sadly hatred/elitism/etc is sadly invovled.

2009 June 10

Madzionist, if you really want to live in a world in which Biblical realities don’t have to be updated, and in which a 3,000 year old text is an acceptable benchmark for governance, then let’s have your car, credit card, vaccines and voting registration back please. Oh, and get off the internet. Chop chop!

This whole “this land has been ours since the Bible” stuff is a little bit too self servingly selective for me to be impressed by. In fact if you read the actual story (I recommend it – the language is beautiful) then I think you’ll find that it starts with how the land was, in fact, somebody else’s. And the Israelites took it. By force.

Live by the sword, die by the sword – but I’d rather not. I’d rather we woke up and realised that, actually, it’s the 21st century, things are a little bit different these days (what with fathers no longer being obliged to give their daughters up to gang rape in the name of hospitality – you know, little things), and maybe we’ve got something to gain from getting with the program and not being such assholes. Just a thought.

As for me – thank you for the precis on my personality by the way, it serves to advance mature discourse so much when people take pot shots at each other – I’m a creature of my culture and upbringing: riddled with biases, and probably not a little latent racism too. Sorry to disappoint, after you’d set me up as such a paragon, but what can I say – ze ma yesh.

Newsflash, though: the fact that I’m not perfect doesn’t make you right. I know, it’s terrible. So unfair of me to actually demand your words stand for themselves rather than be uplifted by the baseness of my character! It’s, like, I actually respect you enough as a human being to expect that you speak rationally and intelligently! How dare I!

Life’s a bitch like that sometimes. And so, I suppose, am I.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

“You’re a racist when you get up in the morning in your house that was built on somebody else’s field”

I’ll give you an example … I think 35-45% of Sderot was bulit on an Arab village that existed pre-1948. Now I don’t have any information on how the inhabitants left (by force/choice etc). So, you’re implying 35-45% of Sderot residents are ‘racists’.

You’re implying too that quite a % of the Eastern coast of the US is ‘racist’ as it’s built on land that was ’somebody else’s field’. Heck, the people who live in my family’s ‘old home’ in Rhodes – are they racists too?

That’s why I took ‘issue’ with your definition of racist – I don’t think it’s the correct term.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

“what with fathers no longer being obliged to give their daughters up to gang rape in the name of hospitality ”

What story exactly are you quoting in the Bible ma’am? Yaakov and Dinah?

2009 June 10

With all do respect to My Lady, WTF are you talking about? I commented how you’re making a case that Jews from antiquity through today always have been and always will be racist land grabbers, and you respond by bashing Judaism in the name of progress and call me an asshole? Uh, okay…I guess you confirmed my point, and thanks for playing.

2009 June 10

Avram: In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Angels come to Sodom to search for “ten righteous men”, Lot’s neighbours demand that he send his guests out “so that we can know them”. He offers them his virgin daughters instead. Didn’t work, famously.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

Ok – I thought it was something a bit more ‘prominent’ in the Jewish faith, so I was curious.

Re: my last comment (‘old home’ in Rhodes was obviously pre-WWII, not something they left willingly)

2009 June 10

Madzionist, I wasn’t making a case for anything from antiquity – the marked absence in my comment of words like “antiquity”, “Bible”, “historical right”, or “thousands of years” might have given you a clue.

I was making a point about the very evacuees you were defending – see how if we logically follow each other’s words, we can make a conversation happen? – in other words, the post-’67 Israeli settlers of Gush Katif.

You chose to extrapolate my point to mean something quite incoherent about how I dislike Jews all the way back to Exodus or something; to be honest it made too little sense for me to follow. I called your pompous bluff by pointing out that we don’t actually live in the Bible any more, and that seems to have “confirmed your point” that I’m a Jew hater. Hmm.

So much for mud-slinging; now to a bit of politics.

Everything since 1967 has been going the right-wingers’ way. The occupation is a fact. The settlements are a fact. The segregation and discrimination is a fact. The statelesness of the Palestinians is a fact.

The horrible destruction of Israel and the second Holocaust, on the other hand, have, so far, failed to maetrialise.

From this safe position of the facts on the ground (haha) being on your side, not mine, it can’t hurt to expand your imagination just a little bit and at least try and look at it from somebody else’s point of view. Neither you nor I will be making the decisions on the settlements anyway; and the web is an anonymous medium. You stand to lose nothing by engaging with my argument (to summarise: settlements are immoral, this is bad for Israel) rather than descend into fear mongering and name calling as quickly as you did.

Seriously, I promise: your penis will not shrink.

2009 June 10

Avram, I think the Sodom and Gomorrah story is ‘prominent’. All the more so for its relevance to the current debate:

Lot is your namesake’s, Abraham’s, cousin. Having him be the only virtuous man in a city of sinners establishes the line of Abraham as morally suprior, a theme that is often repeated in later chronicles.

Not only that, but moral action and truthfulness are explicitly seen as important in the Tanach (unlike the Christian Bible, which is more about the talk than the walk): the downfall of Absalom, itself set up as a punishment to David for his sin against Uria the Hittite, is a classic morality tale of the virtuous hero nevertheless cut down by his own pride. Just as an example.

This stuff is both important and interesting, and it prefiguers and refracts a lot of what we see as “modern” morality. It pisses me off when poeople with a superficial knowledge of the text try to subvert it to score political points, especially when the implicit assumption is that it’s only the stuff that supports their view that is ‘prominent’.

2009 June 10

Madzionist, I wasn’t making a case for anything from antiquity

Oh, but indeed you were making such a case, my dearest Lady. Your comment was, in fact, a general summary of what you consider to be racism, and by your definition all Jews from antiquity through today would be racists. Sorry to have to make you squirm in such an awkward position, but don’t worry: your ass can continue speaking on your behalf.

2009 June 10

*yawn*

Hey, guess what, Madzionist? I’m bored with you now.

Which means I’m going stop wasting valuable vocabulary on text that you obviously can’t bo bothered to read.

You know what the good news is? You can say that you’ve won the argument! Despite the fact that you didn’t argue at all! Only name called and cherry-picked and evaded and extrapolated and made shit up!

Way to go on the political engagement. I can see you really care about the issues.

Enjoy.

2009 June 10

You can say that you’ve won the argument!

Winning? No, just exposing a bad argument so others who read our exchange can see your double standard when it comes to Jews.

2009 June 10

Avram:

Wow, things have heated up here!

I’m interested Gert, how do you see Gabriel and I politically?

Gabriel? There seem to be two Gabriels here: one I largely agree with (the ‘latter Gabriel’) and one who I disagree with.

Assuming both are the same person, I’d say centre Left.

You? Right but not sure how far. You’re hard to gauge.

ha ha, who’s the troll? Man, do you know Gert by any chance?

Uncalled for.

2009 June 10

All:

Mad Zionist’s position is one you simply can’t argue with: Jews have a Divine right to Palestine (and beyond, of course) and no one else has. This absolves MZ immediately from any accusations of racism (but awards him the right to consider anyone else an anti-Semite or self-hating Jew). No argument possible: you either accept his axioms or you don’t.

I’m also totally miffed as to why he chose to delete me from his blogroll, only to replace me with Falsedi, a very liberal blog as far as Zionism goes nowadays.

2009 June 10

I’m also totally miffed as to why he chose to delete me from his blogroll, only to replace me with Falsedi, a very liberal blog as far as Zionism goes nowadays.

Sorry, but I don’t link to Antisemitic sites.

2009 June 10

LB:

Settlements are not about security. I never said that. They might be stupid but they are not wrong. Israel has a right to the land – any withdrawal, as I said before, would be for demographic reasons alone.

Israel has a right to the land, how, pray tell? Seriously, try and explain that to me in simple terms, without resorting to self-serving legal mumbo jumbo (I’m sure Israel’s finest legal eagles have got it all sorted out but writing self-serving laws is neither truthful, ethical or moral – and possibly not even legal either).

2009 June 10

Madze:

In your book Falsedi is by definition an anti-Semitic site (well, erm, ’self-loathing’). I may disagree with Alex on quite a few things but we don’t disagree on the settlements and on the fact that the Palestinians have a right to part of the land too. TOTALLY A-S, no?

Lemmesee you trying to slither your way out of this…

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

Gert:

“Uncalled for.”

Sorry, only two people have ever called me a troll. You and her, so I thought maybe she was TheLady de Gert. I’m sorry if I was wrong.

I think Gabriel is left of center too – and I think I’m center-right on security but a ’socialist’ at heart on economics etc (yah, crazy mix for a Finance major!)

2009 June 10

Avram:

As I said: hard to gauge…

2009 June 10

No slithering necessary, Gert. There is a giant chasm between a liberal Zionist in the IDF and a militant anti-Zionist bent on Israel’s destruction.

2009 June 10

Madze:

Even a Liberal Zionist who agrees almost entirely with Gabriel?

BTW, I’m not “bent on the destruction of Israel”. Israel is a reality. PERIOD.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

Gert:

You see, why didn’t you say that at the beginning?

Now can’t you say, “Israel and Palestine” should be a reality too … Then I think even Madze add your blog’s link to his blog again.

2009 June 10

Anyway, Alex, after a close brush with ’self-loathism’ gets let off by a legal loophole, i.e. being a member of the IDF. It’s to be hoped for poor Gabriel that he can top this bid by declaring he’s a Colonel in the IDF or that he fought in the Six Day war of ‘Liberation’… ;-)

2009 June 10

Avram:

I’ve made the argument that I’m not looking for the destruction of Israel many times at Madze’s. He just likes to play l’ingenue a lot of the time.

2009 June 10

Gert,

Without getting into details. I’ll assume you accept Israel’s right to land as it was held on June 3, 1967. Beyond that, in a war, borders change. It was a defensive war, and Israel won. That simple. Further, why should the aggressors be allowed impunity (Israel was constantly attacked for years. It finally decided to finally respond when the threat seemed existential – not to say non-existential, but lethal, threats are not to be responded). Not to mention the historical connection, the constant ties, the huge rise in Arab immigration, on the tails of Jewish immigration, beginning at the end of the 19th century. The Jews that were murderously evicted from their homes well before 1948 in numerous places, too.

But, assuming you don’t accept that – what right does America have to its land? Or the UK? Or the Germanic tribes to central Europe for that matter? All, far far less than Israel.

In any case, there is nothing holy about the green line. It’s an armistice agreement.

2009 June 10
Avram permalink

Gert:

Please don’t blame us for this guy, please?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1091870.html

(FYI: I am just joking)

2009 June 10

Gert, are you are saying that you do recognize Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish State, but are also an activist for the humanitarian rights of the arabs, as well? If so, we have a basis to go forward. When you strip away the angry feelings, you surely realize that I engage in discourse with many who don’t agree with my views, and have left my site available to comment by all but the most hardened and militant AntiZionists.

However, I am not at all comfortable linking to a site that is exclusively dedicated to defaming Israel and Zionists. If you say that you’re back to being more even handed, as you were before, well, that would be a welcome change in my book.

2009 June 10

LB:

“I’ll assume you accept Israel’s right to land as it was held on June 3, 1967.”

Not really, no. But Israel is a reality. Few deny that. Even Hamas recognises it de facto. The Arabs states recognise it de facto. I’ll not be any different.

Article 49 of the Geneva Convention:

Article 49 (1) insists that “Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive” and Article 49 (6) insists that “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”.

This part of Article 49 is clearly intended to make territory acquired by means of was useless and thus discourages military conquest (and rightly so).

Examples like the US and the UK (and the latter is a pretty bad example) only make me believe murder (for instance) is OK with you, since as others have done it too.

The rest of your argument is irrelevant ‘Howaboutery’.

2009 June 10

Mad Zionist:

“When you strip away the angry feelings, you surely realize that I engage in discourse with many who don’t agree with my views, and have left my site available to comment by all but the most hardened and militant AntiZionists.”

You chose to break off relations with me unilaterally, as did Eitan (BTW that site’s gone MIA – any idea why?), not me, because you perceived me as ‘going completely the other way’. But that was mostly perception on your part: my stance is one of hardening in the absence of any proof that Israel wants to evacuate most of the WB (a logical conclusion since it hasn’t happened for over 40 years now). A shift in emphasis, nothing more.

Never, not in the past and not today either have I called for the destruction of Israel, or claimed to support such an idea. To be clear: I DO NOT.

But I do believe the creation of modern Israel was with hindsight not a good idea. Self-determination cannot be achieved honourably and justly on the back of another people and civilisation. As a result, Israel as it stands is neither good for the Jews that live there or the many Palestinians who end up in the most wretched of conditions.

The desire for self-determination of the Jewish people through the creation of the modern Nation sate of Israel is fundamentally different from the self-determination of say, those who live in Anotheronestan. Bloody as the struggle for self-determination of the Anotheronestanis may be they have two redeeming features:

1. They live in the area known as Anotheronestan.
2. They do not have to ethnically cleanse another people that had no responsibility for past Anotheronestani suffering.

And current reactions from the Bunker in Tel Aviv/J’sem to Obama’s mild pressure do not bode well for future Israeli handling of the ‘crisis’.

2009 June 10

Avram:

“Please don’t blame us for this guy, please?”

No, but what if he turns Zionist? ;-)

2009 June 11

Gert, Jews have never stopped living in the land of Israel or claiming that it belongs to the Jewish people. After The Ottomans were defeated by the British, it was the first time in 2 millenia that Jews were able to return to Israel without fear of violent persecution from the empire in charge. As a result, the Jewish people came in droves to England’s newly conquered land, and the British in return decided that they would divide up the region for both the arabs and the Jews, as at this time they were nearly equal in number. In the end, they set aside all the land east of the Jordan River for the Palestinians and all the land west of the Jordan river for the Jews.

However, when WW2 broke out and the Nazis came into power things changed. Jews were kept out by the White Paper as a way to try and soften the ever increasing arab violence. The Arabs aligned with the Nazis and supported Hitler, who in return promised to exterminate the Jews in Israel and give them all of the land for themselves. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler several times and drew up plans for the final solution of the Jews living in British Palestine.

Unfortunately for Hitler and the Mufti, the Allies were able to get to Rommel in Africa before he could get to the Jews in Israel and genocide was averted. After the war, the British attempted to quell the unrest in Palestine by siding with the arabs to crush the Jewish resistance. They failed, and were driven out leaving the arabs and the Jews to fight it out for themselves.

After the Jews survived some very bloody massacres, and inflicted a few of their own in response, the English decided the time had come to divide up the tiny Palestinian mandate that had been set aside originally for the Jews and make a tiny, disjointed portion for them while giving the majority to the arabs, The UN voted in favor, and the modern state of Israel was created. Immediately, the entire arab world declared war on the ravaged Jews, most of whom were Holocaust survivors, and ordered the arabs living in Israel proper to leave or risk becoming collateral damage.

The arabs fled, most believing that the Jews would be crushed in short order. Miraculously, the opposite happened, the Jews were victorious, and the land that the arabs fled from was annexed as Israel proper. Israel fought several more wars of survival over the next 20 years, and were victorious every time, culminating in the great 6 day war, where the Jordanians were routed out of the West Bank. Many in Israel wanted to annex the land that the arabs were fleeing from over to the eastern bank, but Moshe Dyan begged them back, and returned the Temple Mount as well, feeling that this good will gesture would ensure peace would be attainable from the grateful arabs. It was a disastrous mistake, one that haunts Israel to this very day.

Now, you claim Israel is something LESS justifiable than Anywherestan? No, it is the opposite. Israel is the Jewish homeland, always has been, and the Jews have never, ever stopped believing that. You may think it’s just a few religious settlers, or a movement of radicalism, but it is part of being a Jew every bit as much as cutting the foreskin.

2009 June 11
Gabriel permalink

“At this point, your seething, ignorant, bogus libels against Jews and Israel negate any of your comparatively hollow denials of Judeophobia. You are a sad and mindless caricature of the self-loathing Jew, and I am truly sorry for you.”

Don’t be. I remember briefly dating a girl when I was a teen who told me that she used to laugh when people called her a slut because she knew she wasn’t so the attempt to hurt her went nowhere. The things that you let get to you are the things you doubt, even a little, yourself. To call me a self-loathing Jew is so incredibly ridiculous that I plan on telling everyone I know about it. My sister in Tzfat will probably be upset at what a Khilhul Hashem it all is, but the rest of my family and friends will laugh. What is Judeophobia anyway? I’ve missed to much of this thread to try to catch back up, but a few things. I agree with Avram that The Lady’s definition of racism is too broad. I mean, every single person in the world woke up this morning on land that was stolen at some point.

I think there is a very serious discussion to be had on racism. To me, there are a few of common misconceptions about racism.
1) If somebody says something racist=they are a racist. (There is not a single expression that is automatically racist. It’s about context: who is saying it, how is it said, why it is said, etc…)
2) That anybody is not racist in some way. ( we are all tribal to varying degrees)
3) That racists are rotten to the core and all their opinions are invalid. (For example, the most racist settler may spout hatred against Arabs, but his opinion on the Israeli economic world might be insightful. An anti-Semitic Palestinian might think Jews are descendants of pigs, but he also might have incredible insight into the native plants of the area.) I’m not saying that we should celebrate these people or be silent about their racism, but I think to shut someone out of all dialogue or to discount a person entirely as a person because of one (albeit, very important) aspect of their beliefs is short-sighted. (unless their hatred is so strong that it permeates everything they say and do.) I mean, I love Roman Polanski’s films but abhor that he had sex with a 13-year old.

There is subtlety and shades even in racism. There are passive racists, active racists, racists by birth, racists by choice, racists that can change, racists that can’t, and so on….

2009 June 11

Gert, you wanted to avoid what you called “self-serving legal mumbo jumbo.” So, I did. The Geneva convention doesn’t apply to settlements, and this whole thread is beginning to get tiresome, so I won’t get into why – I’m sure you’ve heard it before from people you have called “hasbara mouthpieces” before anyway.

Gabriel – “we are all tribal to varying degrees” Yes, but tribal =/= racist. Neither is separatist. Are the Amish racist? Is any country that doesn’t allow immigrants?

2009 June 11
Avram permalink

“If somebody says something racist=they are a racist”

Come on Gabriel – you’ve never made a racist joke? I know I have, and still do – and I don’t hate Blacks, Mexicans, Jews etc … It’s just funny to laugh about ourselves and others (when done with appropriate company)

2009 June 11

LB:

The Geneva convention doesn’t apply to settlements, and this whole thread is beginning to get tiresome, so I won’t get into why – I’m sure you’ve heard it before from people you have called “hasbara mouthpieces” before anyway.

No, no, don’t be shy. No talk of Hasbara mouthpieces here.

I don’t recall anyone explaining to me why the settlements aren’t subject to the Geneva Convention and I’m now truly intrigued. Allowing (actively encouraging in fact) Israelis to settle on land acquired by military conquest isn’t population transfer? Please explain.

This seems to me to be a case where the Convention applies that’s so clear-cut it’s hard to find other examples that fit so well.

There’s also the important point of “intent”. Who can, after all this time of unabated building, still NOT believe that the intention of Israel is to hold on to at least some of that territory. The Israeli G’ment also claims there exist an agrement between Sharon and Bush to that effect (on some of the settlements), even though the US admin.now denies knowledge of that (I read somewhere else the agreement had been ratified by Congress, actually).

So please indulge me. Best behaviour promised. Boyscout’s honour.

2009 June 11

Mad Zionist:

Do you know what happened to Eitan and ContinuedinChicago?

2009 June 11

Gert, thank God, he is seemingly doing a lot better based on the correspondences I’ve received. Thank you for asking. He pulled his blog because he did not like having his unhealthy past broadcasted for the world to see. He’s now at a Yeshiva learning Torah.

2009 June 13
Sam permalink

We’re all a little bit racist. Nothing wrong with it. Its when we pretend that racism is democratic that it becomes a problem.

2009 June 13
Sam permalink

“Huh? The two-state solution is an injustice because it will be a compromise rather than massacres and ethnic cleansing of Jews? Boo-hoo. I often get the feeling that anti-Zionists are really just interested in perpetual conflict.”

You make strangely compelling arguments. Please send me your address so I can move in.

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