Not quite sure what your point is – who is working against Israeli democracy here? The state authorities or New Profile?
I might be overlooking something, but New Profile seems to be in direct violation of the law, and inciting to break the law. Only a few examples (there are many more sections of the law that New Profile has violated, these are only the ones that the AG has cited in his instructions to the police to start an investigation):
חוק העונשין 109א – מי שהסית או שידל אדם החייב בשירות בכוח מזויין שלא ישרת בו או שלא יתייצב לפעולה צבאית, דינו – מאסר חמש שנים.
“Penalty Law/Code” Section 109a – One who incites or persuaded a person who is obliged to to serve in the armed forces not to serve or not to participate (lit. be present at) a military operation, shall be sentenced to five years imprisonment.
חוק שירות ביטחון (נוסח משולב) 46א – מי שעשה אחת מאלה, דינו – מאסר שנתיים: 1. לא מילא חובה המוטלת עליו בחוק זה או לפיו; 2.מסר ביודעין לרשות הפועלת לפי חוק זה ידיעה כוזבת בפרט שהוא חייב למסור לפי חוק זה. 46ב – מי שעשה אחת מאלה, דינו – מאסר חמש שנים: 1. עשה אחד הדברים המפורטים בסעיף קטן (א), בכוונה להשתמט משירות בטחון;
Law of Security Service Section 46a – One who commits any of the following shall be sentences to two years imprisonment: 1. Did not fulfill one’s obligation as required by this law; 2. Knowingly gave to an authority operation under this law false information that is required by this law. 46b – One who commits one of the following shall be sentenced to five years imprisonment: 1. Committed one of the actions in subsection (a) in order to evade security (e.g. military) service.
חוק השיפוט הצבאי 99 – חייל שהשיג לעצמו פטור משירות בטחון כמשמעותו בחוק שירות בטחון [נוסח משולב], התשמ”ו-1986, בטענות שוא, בהעלמת פרטים חשובים או באמצעי הונאה אחרים, דינו – מאסר עשר שנים.
Military Jurisdiction Law Section 99 – A soldier who acquires an exemption from security (e.g. military) service, as defined in the Security Service Law of 1986, under false pretenses, by concealing important details or by other methods of fraud, shall be sentenced to ten years imprisonment.
By the way, I did not cite the entire law – there are additional subsections that deal with violations that seem to be irrelevant, and a few that deal with factors that, if present, increase the severity of the sentences to be handed down.
Avram May 2nd, 2009
11:57 pm
“New Profile seems to be in direct violation of the law, and inciting to break the law”
Yup, that’s what I said in his piece last week …
If they ‘support’ those who want out, that’s one thing – although I’m opposed – I sadly accept. If they are deliberately pushing/convincing people to get out of the army and helping them too, then they should be punished to the full extent of the law …
Well we shall see if they are charged with anything. It does seem strange, given that New Profile’s raison d’etre has always been to operate publicly. It can’t be that their website contravenes the law, so it will be interesting to hear what they are actually charged with.
In the meantime, the video clearly shows the violent dispersal of a non-violent protest, with elderly women pushed and shoved by policemen. If you’re happy with that, so be it.
Avram May 3rd, 2009
8:46 am
“the video clearly shows the violent dispersal of a non-violent protest”
That’s the erosion of democracy though? That’s Israeli police (well, I hope not all of them but I wonder)
Did you call it the erosion of Israeli democracy with what happened during the Disengagement?
I don’t think forcibly removing people from homes built illegally in occupied territory can be compared to forcibly removing a protest in downtown Tel Aviv.
Avram May 3rd, 2009
11:53 am
But you think forcibly removing people from rallies across the country, often times with extreme violence, is? That’s what I’m getting at – because that clip is nothing compared to what was happening to anti-disengagement rally protesters …
Forcibly removing people from peaceful rallies is wrong whatever the circumstances, so if the rallies you are referring to were peaceful, it would have been wrong to disperse them.
Avram May 3rd, 2009
2:03 pm
So we agree … and yet, bar the example the ynet reporter gave in your last new profile entry (I forgot his name), there wasn’t a peep from the left wing because they were so in favor of the Disengagement (whether the withdrawal from Gaza was right/wrong, that is irrelevant I feel to the discussion). Sad how democracy only is eroded when ‘your’ (not you in particular obviously, but the left as a movement) rallies are dispersed …
I can’t understand what’s being said of course but for a very small and totally peaceful demo that was certainly rather heavy-handed behaviour by the Police.
I am not happy with nearly anything the Israeli Police does – it’s a corrupt, ineffective organization full of people whose actions show they have very little respect for anything but their government pensions.
No excuse, but as bad as this is – as Avram said, the police did far worse in 2005.
Avram May 4th, 2009
7:37 am
I still don’t get what it’s an ‘erosion of democracy’ though – does that mean England’s democracy is on the way down b/c of the recent problems with police abuse (where people actually died)? How about the great ole US of A?
As LB says, Israel’s police force is ‘eh’ at best. They do a lot of things most of us don’t like (though most left wingers, and honest ‘anti-Zionists’ like Gert will ignore some of the infractions for obvious reasons) …
I don’t think forcibly removing anti-Israel activists in downtown Tel Aviv an be compared to forcibly removing innocent Jewish citizens from homes built legally in Eretz Yisroel.
Fixed.
Ketmus June 12th, 2009
5:06 pm
Israeli democracy?!? What is this???
Israel and democracy are two things that can never be mentioned in the same sentence!
Not quite sure what your point is – who is working against Israeli democracy here? The state authorities or New Profile?
I might be overlooking something, but New Profile seems to be in direct violation of the law, and inciting to break the law. Only a few examples (there are many more sections of the law that New Profile has violated, these are only the ones that the AG has cited in his instructions to the police to start an investigation):
חוק העונשין 109א – מי שהסית או שידל אדם החייב בשירות בכוח מזויין שלא ישרת בו או שלא יתייצב לפעולה צבאית, דינו – מאסר חמש שנים.
“Penalty Law/Code” Section 109a – One who incites or persuaded a person who is obliged to to serve in the armed forces not to serve or not to participate (lit. be present at) a military operation, shall be sentenced to five years imprisonment.
חוק שירות ביטחון (נוסח משולב) 46א – מי שעשה אחת מאלה, דינו – מאסר שנתיים: 1. לא מילא חובה המוטלת עליו בחוק זה או לפיו; 2.מסר ביודעין לרשות הפועלת לפי חוק זה ידיעה כוזבת בפרט שהוא חייב למסור לפי חוק זה. 46ב – מי שעשה אחת מאלה, דינו – מאסר חמש שנים: 1. עשה אחד הדברים המפורטים בסעיף קטן (א), בכוונה להשתמט משירות בטחון;
Law of Security Service Section 46a – One who commits any of the following shall be sentences to two years imprisonment: 1. Did not fulfill one’s obligation as required by this law; 2. Knowingly gave to an authority operation under this law false information that is required by this law. 46b – One who commits one of the following shall be sentenced to five years imprisonment: 1. Committed one of the actions in subsection (a) in order to evade security (e.g. military) service.
חוק השיפוט הצבאי 99 – חייל שהשיג לעצמו פטור משירות בטחון כמשמעותו בחוק שירות בטחון [נוסח משולב], התשמ”ו-1986, בטענות שוא, בהעלמת פרטים חשובים או באמצעי הונאה אחרים, דינו – מאסר עשר שנים.
Military Jurisdiction Law Section 99 – A soldier who acquires an exemption from security (e.g. military) service, as defined in the Security Service Law of 1986, under false pretenses, by concealing important details or by other methods of fraud, shall be sentenced to ten years imprisonment.
By the way, I did not cite the entire law – there are additional subsections that deal with violations that seem to be irrelevant, and a few that deal with factors that, if present, increase the severity of the sentences to be handed down.
“New Profile seems to be in direct violation of the law, and inciting to break the law”
Yup, that’s what I said in his piece last week …
If they ‘support’ those who want out, that’s one thing – although I’m opposed – I sadly accept. If they are deliberately pushing/convincing people to get out of the army and helping them too, then they should be punished to the full extent of the law …
Well we shall see if they are charged with anything. It does seem strange, given that New Profile’s raison d’etre has always been to operate publicly. It can’t be that their website contravenes the law, so it will be interesting to hear what they are actually charged with.
In the meantime, the video clearly shows the violent dispersal of a non-violent protest, with elderly women pushed and shoved by policemen. If you’re happy with that, so be it.
“the video clearly shows the violent dispersal of a non-violent protest”
That’s the erosion of democracy though? That’s Israeli police (well, I hope not all of them but I wonder)
Did you call it the erosion of Israeli democracy with what happened during the Disengagement?
I don’t think forcibly removing people from homes built illegally in occupied territory can be compared to forcibly removing a protest in downtown Tel Aviv.
But you think forcibly removing people from rallies across the country, often times with extreme violence, is? That’s what I’m getting at – because that clip is nothing compared to what was happening to anti-disengagement rally protesters …
Forcibly removing people from peaceful rallies is wrong whatever the circumstances, so if the rallies you are referring to were peaceful, it would have been wrong to disperse them.
So we agree … and yet, bar the example the ynet reporter gave in your last new profile entry (I forgot his name), there wasn’t a peep from the left wing because they were so in favor of the Disengagement (whether the withdrawal from Gaza was right/wrong, that is irrelevant I feel to the discussion). Sad how democracy only is eroded when ‘your’ (not you in particular obviously, but the left as a movement) rallies are dispersed …
I can’t understand what’s being said of course but for a very small and totally peaceful demo that was certainly rather heavy-handed behaviour by the Police.
But for a far more comprehensive critiquing of Israel’s ‘democracy and ethnocracy’ Aloni’s Ha’aretz piece goes much further.
I responded over at mine to your comment.
The behaviour of the police was definitely going over the line. This would be true of any peaceful protest in Israel.
I am not happy with nearly anything the Israeli Police does – it’s a corrupt, ineffective organization full of people whose actions show they have very little respect for anything but their government pensions.
No excuse, but as bad as this is – as Avram said, the police did far worse in 2005.
I still don’t get what it’s an ‘erosion of democracy’ though – does that mean England’s democracy is on the way down b/c of the recent problems with police abuse (where people actually died)? How about the great ole US of A?
As LB says, Israel’s police force is ‘eh’ at best. They do a lot of things most of us don’t like (though most left wingers, and honest ‘anti-Zionists’ like Gert will ignore some of the infractions for obvious reasons) …
I don’t think forcibly removing anti-Israel activists in downtown Tel Aviv an be compared to forcibly removing innocent Jewish citizens from homes built legally in Eretz Yisroel.
Fixed.
Israeli democracy?!? What is this???
Israel and democracy are two things that can never be mentioned in the same sentence!