Comments on: Five comments on Chas Freeman

By: LB

LB — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:53:40 +0000

No, Peter, I understand it very well. Money is a symptom of the problem – but it is also the cause, the very thing that is limiting Israeli independence.

America will still want to influence Israel, of course, as will the American Jewish community – but money is the only ticket in (donations from American Jews amount to very little in the grand scheme of things). Israel does not want outside influence, if it doesn’t come with money – that is one reason Europe has no real foothold in Israel. That is why the US had far less influence 40 years ago. If Israel doesn’t get something from that country (see France pre-67) – that country, to Israel is little more than talk.

You’re making the common mistake that many outside of Israel make (without knowing where you are) – thinking that the world can change everything in Israel at whim (it can only do that militarily – not likely anytime soon).

By: Peter D

Peter D — Wed, 18 Mar 2009 03:46:41 +0000

“The meaning of this political influence will be next to nothing if it is not backed up by American money”

LB, this is simply wrong. I am afraid you don’t really understand the nature of the American Israeli relationship. Money is the symptom, not the root of the problem.

By: LB

LB — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:23:50 +0000

Peter – The meaning of this political influence will be next to nothing if it is not backed up by American money. So while. yes, AIPAC has more influence now – if you remove its raison d’etre (securing American foreign aid for Israel) – it will not have nearly as much influence.

To go slightly off topic – right-wingers/left-wingers/anyone who doesn’t actually make the move to Israel – their influence in general should be eliminated. Israel needs to support itself, and make decisions on its own – without the influence of Jews (or others) abroad. This is not because right or left-wing policy is better than the other – it’s a principle – J-Street or AIPAC want to influence Israelis politics, there is a very simple way for them to do so – make Aliyah, and vote.

By: Peter D

Peter D — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:00:29 +0000

LB – not agreed.
Supporting J Street is not the same as just having guys I like more to influence things. The fallacy here is that AIPAC and its allies already have influence and unless this influence goes away, the best possible route is to have some sort of balance. It is not the “global optimum”, true, but a “local” one.
Now, another fallacy is to claim that the source of American influence is the American money. This is hardly true. While I agree that American aid to Israel should be eliminated (or at least reduced to something less outrageous than what it is currently) most support Israel gets from the US is political in nature. Since “right-wingers” are not going to drop this support, it is incumbent on the “left-wingers” to counterbalance it.
P.S. If and when Israel is forced to stand on its feet to a greater extent it will pursue more sensible policies.

By: Alex Stein

Alex Stein — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 17:04:20 +0000

LB – Agreed

By: LB

LB — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:55:19 +0000

Alex, the answer to Americans (potentially?) having more influence on Israel than Israeli citizens do is not to disavow AIPAC while expressing pleasure at J-Street and the Israel Policy Forum. That doesn’t change anything – all it means is that Americans *whom you like more* will have influence over the same issues they should not.

The answer is fairly simple – End American “aid” to Israel. This money does so much more harm than good (for Israel), stifling the local Israeli industry and economy more than it stimulates it, creates a patron-client relationship that effectively forbids Israel from pursuing its own policies (domestic, international, trade, diplomatic and other), without this unwelcome outside intervention.

Avram – Israel can stand on its own two feet. Alone. It just hasn’t been given the chance yet (who knows when?).

By: Avram

Avram — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:01:41 +0000

“As an Israeli citizen, it frustrates me that the American Jewish community can potentially have more influence on what happens here than I can.”

Not really … Look who 80% of them voted for … and I still think most of American Jewry really doesn’t care AIPAC (or care to be represented by their ideals/aspirations)

Until this country is able to stand on her own two feet ‘properly’, outside forces (be them Jewish or not) will always have as much, if not more, sway than us simple Israelis here.

By: Nick

Nick — Wed, 11 Mar 2009 17:12:48 +0000

interesting remarks