Zionism at its best aims at the normalisation of the Jewish people. The petition to remove religion from Israeli ID cards should be applauded. Israeli citizens are Israelis – that is what matters. I urge all Israeli readers to sign the petition here.
“Zionism at its best aims at the normalisation of the Jewish people.” I’m not sure I agree, but for the sake of the argument, I’ll accept. The key phrase is, however, “the Jewish people,” and not “the Israeli people.” What this petition promotes is precisely that, and takes another step away from the very basis of Zionism. If it is an Israeli people, and not a Jewish people, who is sovereign in the holy land, that is one step away from delegitimizing Zionism itself (no Law of Return, etc).
“Zionism at its worst aims at the normalization of the Jewish people. The petition to remove religion from Israeli ID cards should be burned.”
Fixed it.
One should be identified as a loyal citizen of the Jewish State first; “Israeli” is secondary and slang. Without the Jewish component, the term “Israeli” is absolutely meaningless, and the existence of the state cartoonish folly. The world doesn’t need another cookie-cutter melting pot of western liberalism.
Wouldn’t it make sense to first remove authority over weddings and funerals from the various different religious authorities? As long as the law recognizes your ethnicity / religion then it makes perfect sense for the ID cards to recognize them.
On the other hand, weddings and funerals aren’t used in quite the same way to oppress our minority populations.
LB – It’s doing the opposite. Normalisation is the essence of Zionism, a point recognised by Ahad Ha’am and Jabotinsky alike. This petition doesn’t negate the Law of Return.
MadZionist – at least now we are clear that you are an anti-Zionist. Perhaps we should call you a Judean nationalist from now on.
Opher – to clarify, I also want weddings and funerals to be removed from the purview of religious authorities.
MadZionist – at least now we are clear that you are an anti-Zionist. Perhaps we should call you a Judean nationalist from now on.
Zionist like Kahane, not Herzl. Judean nationalist does have a nice ring to it, though! 
Alex – this proposal only seems to truly work, and advance Zionism in a homogeneous, Jewish society – which Israel is not. If Israel is the Jewish state – calling everyone just Israeli removes any distinction between Jewish and not. If there is no distinction (if only by name – I’m not referring to anything else) between Jews and others within Israel, then how can such a distinction be made (for the sake of the Law of Return, e.g.) for non-citizens of Israel?
For the sake of clarification – I am in favor of completely disbanding the Rabbinate – and the removal of weddings, funerals, conversions, etc from the purview of the State.
“I started talking about the pioneers of Petach Tikva, the first Zionist settlement. Who were these very earliest pioneers? They were the most orthodox Jews from Jerusalem wearing ’shtreimels,’ the dark fur hats of the Middle Ages. After Petach Tikvah came Hibat Zion in the 1880s, also settled by orthodox Jews during the First Aliyah. The Second Aliyah immigrants who arrived prior to World War One were inspired by the social movements fermenting in Europe and especially by the Russian Revolution of 1905. But beneath the veneer they too were yeshiva ‘buchers’ – students who had received their education in the Jewish religious schools of Eastern Europe. After World War One came the Third Aliyah – our parents. And that was a generation of true rebels. But for all their revolutionary fire, they knew in their bones what it mean to be Jewish. They knew their culture, they spoke Hebrew. If I had mastered the richness of this language as my father did, I would be exceptionally proud. So that was a generation of rebels, but rebels with deep roots in Judaism.
The problem started with our generation. Because we were the sons and daughters of rebels, we had no Judaism in our upbringing whatsoever. The result was that our generation in a way lost its roots, the first to have done so. What did we know about Jewish wisdom? What did we know about Jewish contributions to the world or about the Jewish presence here in Israel? Very little. Were we taught to be proud that we were Jews, descendants of those Jews who through the ages had fought to the death for their beliefs? No, we were not taught these things. Instead, with our generation there was an attempt to create not Jews but New Israeli Men and Women. In the process we were disconnected from those earlier generations whose Jewishness was inscribed in their hearts.
And the outside world saw this too. I remember back in the 1950s and ’60s when I was traveling abroad I felt the desire by others to consider me not a Jew but as an Israeli, to draw the distinction. You are an Israeli, they seemed to say. They, those people over there with strange clothes and strange ways – they are Jews. And in a way it felt easy to be accepted like that. But it was also dangerous. It was a signal that we had lost our Jewishness. And I for one, even then, never believed we would really be able to survive here if we were nothing more than Israelis. For our attachment to the land of Israel, our identity with it, comes through out Jewishness. I am a Jew, I thought then, as I think now. That does not mean I am a religious man. I am not. When it comes to practicing Judaism, there is much I do not know. But I do know for certain that above everything I am a Jew and only afterwards an Israeli and the rest.”
Arik Sharon
Alex – Without ‘Jewishness’, there isn’t Zionism … This, I think, goes back to the ‘State for Jews’ or ‘Jewish State’ question.
So why not let the person decide? You can be Israeli, MZ can be Jewish, Mustafa can be Muslim, Fadi can be Druze etc.
I wasn’t being pedantitc, I have ****** by ‘nationality’ (לאום).
I think you’re making an assumption there that might cause a lot of issues for a) Ultra-Orthodox Jews b) Arab-Israelis and c) Golan Druze.
Integration for people who share your viewpoint, and others who don’t care one way or another, is fine – but if it alienates many in the process, is it that much better than the older system?
I have no problem having ‘Israeli’ on my T”Z or Passport, but I am a Jew first … What that document says won’t change that (or the country as you assume it will), so I’m currently in the ‘ambivalent’ camp.
“It’s of vital importance that all the groups you mentioned above are integrated into a shared sense of Israeliness. Without this, the country cannot survive.”
I’m not sure that’s so feasible. We both know why the Golan Druze are screwed one way or another.
The Ultra-Orthodox … Hmm I don’t know if we need to integrate them into ‘a shared sense of Israeliness’ but just a ‘a shared sense of living in one country’ – work, army/volunteer, etc etc. I think forcing ‘Israeliness’ on them is unnecessary – our unity with them is not what is hurting our country.
The Israeli Arab … Those that want to be ‘Israeli’, I think pretty much are. There will always be times when they feel not ‘Israeli’ (ie Independence Day, or when everything shuts down for Yom Kippur etc) but that’s common for minorities I’d guess.
I still think in your effort to push Israeliness, you’re doing exactly what you wouldn’t want done on yourself. If this ever gets done, it needs to be done in a way that respects those that aren’t interested or opposed to this.
There is a slight difference between the activities you can do in England on Christmas and the activities you’re limited to on Yom Kippur in Israel …
No debate on Syria – but that is the only solution obviously, which is why they’re an exception (You have to feel for them – cannot be easy).
I think the Israeli Arabs are an excellent example of why Alex is right. The degree of their integration in the society and their loyalty relative to all the obstacles we all know about is quite amazing in my opinion. Imagine what that could be without institutional discrimination, the Palestinian problem reduced/solved and such things as more inclusive symbols (flag, anthem)…
Avram, you can keep your Jewish identity, it doesn’t have to be stamped on your passport/T”Z. The only other country that used to do so was Soviet Union. That’s a nice company to be it…
Regarding other countries immigration policies, there is a good essay about it by The Magnes Zionist.
“such things as more inclusive symbols (flag, anthem)…”
Now I wonder why you want that … Remove more Jewish symbols, further taking away from the Jewish character of the State. Sheesh … Don’t beat around the bush.
“The only other country that used to do so was Soviet Union. ”
I doubt that’s true – I’m quite sure I’ve read of similar things happening in the Arab world, but I’ll have to confirm it, time pending, tonight with some research.
“The Magnes Zionist”
This guy is your Jesus eh? Magnes and Buber … What a lovely bunch they were.
Alex, it is the Jewish nation. We share in rights and responsibilities with those who are citizens of Israel, but the impetus for Zionism, and indeed, the source for its legitimacy is that there is a Jewish nation. If Israel does not celebrate its Jewishness as an active part of its identity, and leaves it simply as a source for acquiring citizenship, then what right does the two-state solution (in which I presume you believe) have?
By eliminating Jewishness from something the state simply recognizes (among its citizenry, not just potential citizenry), being Jewish ceases to be a central part of being a Zionist. And then why not, as Peter says, change the flag and the anthem? What would then make Israel a Jewish state, and not just a state with a lot of Jews (not even “a state of the Jews”)?
Avram.
“Now I wonder why you want that … Remove more Jewish symbols, further taking away from the Jewish character of the State. Sheesh … Don’t beat around the bush.”
Actually, I love the flag, always did, though I can’t stand “Hatikva” – it sounds like a funeral march. But I am trying to put myself into an Arab citizen’s shoes nad I cannot see how he or she could identify with them. If the price of keeping the symbols is the constant feeling of exclusion of a huge group of citizens, I am not sure it is worth it. Maybe a solution would be to have a plebiscite about it. If, say, two-thirds vote for the current symbols – keep them. Less than that, try to come up with an alternative.
“I doubt that’s true – I’m quite sure I’ve read of similar things happening in the Arab world, but I’ll have to confirm it, time pending, tonight with some research.”
So, another good company you want to be in?
“This guy is your Jesus eh? Magnes and Buber … What a lovely bunch they were.”
Puerile, Avram…
The Arabs are good company dude – they are our neighbors after all.
I don’t know what Puerile is – I have to bring out the bloody dictionary again.
“But I am trying to put myself into an Arab citizen’s shoes nad I cannot see how he or she could identify with them”
I don’t identify with the national anthem of my birth country (N’kosi sikelel i’Africa) but I’d stand and respect if I was there.
Is it problematic for them? Sure, and I obivously understand (doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out).
There was a case a few years back where a converted Muslim basketball player (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf I think) refused to stand up for the US National anthem. Caused a major problem obviously and eventualy he just stood up, and prayed while the national anthem was said. I think that says something.
“If the price of keeping the symbols is the constant feeling of exclusion of a huge group of citizens, I am not sure it is worth it.”
Would you rather ‘anashim tovim’, which was seriously considered in the 1980s?
“I don’t identify with the national anthem of my birth country (N’kosi sikelel i’Africa) but I’d stand and respect if I was there.”
Well, first, I think, most Israeli Arabs do respect Israeli anthem, they just cannot identify with it. Second, it would have been different for you if the SA anthem spoke of the “soul of a black man”, wouldn’t it? Or, imagine you were a citizen in an Arab country and how you’d feel about an anthem speaking of “the Arab soul”.
Sorry, really cannot stand this anthem, reminds me of military funerals every time I hear the sorrowful melody. and sometimes I have a creepy thought that maybe it brings bad luck – maybe it’s time to stop singing about hoping “to be free people i our country”, but rather about being free people.
The flag, I hope, could stay. Adding elements to it will destroy the nice design. And, hopefully, in a more equitable and just country it’ll stop being associated with bad things and more people will be able to identify with it.
Sorry, don’t know anything about “anashim tovim”.
“Sorry, really cannot stand this anthem, reminds me of military funerals ”
I wonder why …
“Second, it would have been different for you if the SA anthem spoke of the “soul of a black man””
I don’t think I’d have a problem tbh – but I obviously get your point.
““I wonder why …”
Should have said “military funerals and tiksei hazkara”. I’ve had my share of those, unfortunately…”
I knew why mate, I do live here too ole chap – it’s unfortunately, part of the scenery.
“But, seriously, isn’t this stolen Romanian melody the pits of depression?”
For you, yes. I get goose bumps with it all the time – but I’m one of those old fashioned Zionist folks, so I’m not the ‘norm’.
Peter, go to my site and click on the Hatikva Rock video on the side bar. You may just change your mind about Israel’s national anthem!
Sorry, I didn’t give you my website address. http://madzionist.blogspot.com/
