Of course – Israelis are notorious for leaving (& a lot return obviously too). Israel isn’t for everyone, so obviously, many Jews won’t (or are turned off by A B C) make the decision to live here.

We could say the same thing about the Palestinian upper class (or those who can afford it) – they leave the region (or have left it) with or without any intention of coming back.

“I was claiming that “on average” Jews are less attached to the land than Arabs.”

I guess there’s no way to really prove this one way or another – so to debate it is rather pointless I’d guess.

“this is in their national character”

Just as it seems it was ours to return here too …

“I’ll read about it (send it over!)”

I’ll get the book title when I go home sir.

I’m sorry to say Peter, in my gdud in Miluim – I see perhaps 3-5 of those MAX. most of us treat the Arabs, within reason, with as much respect as possible.

Avram, you have a knack for saying something that never conflicted with what I said but presenting it as some sort of rebuttal. So, I said, “And for every X good Avrams like you, there are Y bad ones, and IDF doesn’t do anything to investigate, punish”. I did not specify X and Y, because I simply cannot. What I did imply is that Y is big enough for it to be an institutional, systemic problem, which is not treated by the State of Israel at all. Your gdud miluim, just as mine in the past, might be a good case, but there are some that are not so good. I guess that sadirnikim might be worse than miluimnikim, because they are just kids who don’t know better. Some brigades are better than others and most anything, I guess, is better than Magav. And, to repeat, even if you show as much respect as possible, you have to examine the fact itself that you are there and put yourself in the skin of a Palestinian and how he feels about a man with a gun controlling his life, preventing him/her from freely moving in his homeland etc, not to mention the more egregious cases.

You obviously missed the Pogroms in Fez well before Zionism that killed 100,000+ Jews

I’ll read about it (send it over!), though I don’t think it contradicts anything we said. The number 100,000+ seems unreasonably high, just as the number of Jews massacred by Bogdan Khmelnitzkiy in Ukraine (that’s Europe!) was nowhere near the alleged 500,000 – these things tend to be exaggerated in histories.
Still, my point was never that live was all honey for Jews in the Arab countries, but that on the whole they fared better there than in Europe. And even this was never a too important point, so, let’s just drop it, I can see no reason to waste breath on this.

Btw, you mentioned earlier in this thread about ‘our exile’ – but you never said from where.

Come on, that was just a figure of speech. I meant that most Jews these days live not in Israel. This is what sometimes is referred to as “exile”, a literal translation of Hebrew “golah”. (Do you know, by the way, that alongside all those Jews who have little or no intention of coming to Israel, there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of Israelis that decided to emigrate?) I was claiming that “on average” Jews are less attached to the land than Arabs. They are a more cosmopolitan people due to many different factors that shaped their history and psyche. That was to illustrate the point that while a Jewish person might it find unreasonable for the exiled Palestinians to hold to the hopes of someday returning to their villages in Palestine, while living in abject poverty in refugee camps in Lebanon or elsewhere, for the Arabs themselves this does not seem unreasonable at all – this is in their national character. I am talking in primitive terms, and qualify everything to make sure that I refer to general characteristics, not concrete cases.

THE JEWS OF MOROCCO

1875: Debdou – 20 Jews killed.

1903: Taza – 40 Jews killed by Muslims during anti-Jewish riots.

1903 – Azemmour – Many Jews killed in Muslim attacks.

1907: Mazagan – 30 Jews killed; 200 women, girls and boys abducted, raped, and then ransomed.

1907: Azemmour – Many Jews killed in Muslim attacks.

April 28, 1912: Fez – At start of French rule, Muslims riot, killing 60 Jews and sacking the Jewish quarter of the city.

http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2009/02/all-you-wanted-to-know-about-muslim.html

You’re surely not going to blame this on Zionism are you? And we haven’t even gone back ‘historically’ into various other ‘issues’ with the Arab & Jew in Morocco.

You obviously missed the Pogroms in Fez well before Zionism that killed 100,000+ Jews. If you want, I can go look up all the stuff and show you how bad it was for Moroccan Jewry, and then other countries if you like before Zionism’s rise. We were 2nd class citizens with many many difficulties. Did Zionism make it worse? Yup, so there you’re 100% right. The evidence of that is with the last ‘real’ generation of Arab Jews who live here and talk rather openly about the hell they lived in (I just wish we’d have given them a better ‘heaven’).

Btw, you mentioned earlier in this thread about ‘our exile’ – but you never said from where.

Lastly, I have no problems with you taking up space with personal experiences. As long as Alex doesn’t mind, and I don’t think he does, please continue – I always find it interesting.

Those stories always upset me – which is why I ensure when I’m at those road blocks, they do not happen. And that Palestinians are treated with respect, even though this puts me in a far more risky situation. I do not believe the above story is the ‘way’ of most of our soldiers.

Yeah, but don’t you ask yourself what you are doing there at the roadblock in the first place, cordoning people, pointing guns, humiliating them, no matter how nice you are about it? And for every X good Avrams like you, there are Y bad ones, and IDF doesn’t do anything to investigate, punish (unless the case gets too much exposure, and even then…) Gideon Levy has scores of stories about people dying waiting for an ambulance, about mothers who have to give birth to still born babies; all for what? for some freaks in Tapuakh and Shiloh to have their way?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcGm-gxmxHw
Now, back to the Jews in Arab countries. You see, you cannot separate it from them being associated – rightly or wrongly – with the State of Israel and its actions. This is just a historical fact: these problems if not started then at least escalated with Zionism and even then, not everywhere – Morocco, for example, Jews left on their own, and not all to Israel either. Jews can live in Europe because they are not associated with a state that has been oppressing and dispossessing several million Europeans for the last 60 years.

Those stories always upset me – which is why I ensure when I’m at those road blocks, they do not happen. And that Palestinians are treated with respect, even though this puts me in a far more risky situation. I do not believe the above story is the ‘way’ of most of our soldiers.

“You say Israel reformed its education system, how so”

I’ll have to look for links, well ones that you won’t rule out as pure propaganda or ‘brainwashing’, but a few sources I’ve read says it had to change because of what Oslo was trying to achieve.

“I was pointing out that if your justification for the impossibly of coexistence of Jews and Arabs in a single state is the history of Jews living in Arab (or Muslim) countries, then it is a pretty lame one, since it was actually much better than in Europe, and few people would say that Jews and Europeans cannot live in a single state.”

Jews can obviously live in European states – but history has proven it will come with a lot of bumps (but I guess this is our fate in most countries). There’s a reason Jews are still there however. How many Jews live in the Arab world? Heck, did you read what happened in Yemen two months ago? A Rabbi’s brother as walking down the street – ‘Convert to Islam,’ said a man. The man refused and in the process took his last breath. There is a difference, in my opinion, between European difficulties with Jews and the Arabs’. Most books will tell you that.

““Because Jews fared better in the Arab world than Europe, it was better?” Of course if they fared better it was better, otherwise what is the meaning of “faring better” is?”

I was talking about the overall situation, and poorly phrased my sentence – apologies. I was trying to say that despite the many success stories of Arab Jews (financially, politically etc), the majority of them struggled with being 2nd class citizens and fear. The fact a few ‘fared better’ doesn’t mean the Arab Jews ‘fared better’ as a whole than European Jewry (Again, I am not comparing the Moors, who were relatively good, or the Ottomans who never really had an issue with the Jews)

You have a lot of links ‘proving’ your points – and while I read them, I do find it rather belittling that you consider all of your sources ‘fact’ and ‘truth’

No, Avram, I don’t as a rule, but when facts are looking too hard in your face you do. To give you some perspective, I am not some natural born pro-Palestinian defender. I went to serve int eh IDF, became “mur’al”, went to the officers course (communication) and sought to serve in the hottest spot at the time (Eastern Zone of South Lebanon). I served in a combat reserve battalion. I was never a right wing person, but not a left winger either. But then some years ago I started reading things that went against what I thought I knew, what they taught me about the history of the conflict. Not a couple of links here and there, but tons of info. At first, it is a feeling of disbelief, both at the revelations and at myself for being able to justify for myself for all these years the treatment of other people like dirt. A story written by a soldier at a roadblock abusing a Palestinian, who could be his father, brought tears to my eyes. Not because I did not know such stories existed, or didn’t know people in the army capable of such things, but because I was able to suppress and ignore. But even then you keep on living. Hope for the best. Until Israel excels again in crapping on your ideals and you start scratching your head: what’s going on? I watched the Second Lebanon Fiasco in disbelief. The whole country swallowing hook, line, and sinker the lie of destroying Hizballa and bringing back the kidnapped soldiers, all while ignoring that our army was reducing apartment blocks to rubble, bombing the shit out of refugees fleeing to the north on our own orders, covering entire villages in cluster bombs. Yes, my parents in Haifa had to run for the basement and yet I couldn’t sleep waiting for the Sayeret to return safely form Baalbek, but such irrational murderous affairs can break something inside you. In the latest rerun of the same show in Gaza I did not feel any sympathy for IDF – I tried, but I couldn’t summon it.
Anyway, enough of it, I am not here to occupy Alex’s pages with the stories of my awakenings.
You say Israel reformed its education system, how so? Is this some wishful thinking on your part or you can back it up with concrete examples? And besides education, Israeli media did not become any better, if not worse, still the same mouthpieces of the government and the IDF that spew bullshit into the ears of the brainwashed public.
Re: bi-national state. I did not say bi-national state will necessarily work. I hope it will, but indeed there is no guarantee (not to mention that we are years away from it even being a possibility). I do think that for a two-state solution that will be acceptable to the Palestinians, Israel will have to go to a civil war. And I don’t believe Israel is ready to do so. So, the two-state solution, as desirable as it is, is most probably dead. I am not a prophet, but this is how I see things. Read this and this (and other) post by the Magnes Zionist to better understand my perspective.
Re: the Jews in the Arab countries, you say “And this is relevant how?” First, I myself said “you cannot really draw any conclusions here”, meaning that the relevancy is marginal if any. I was pointing out that if your justification for the impossibly of coexistence of Jews and Arabs in a single state is the history of Jews living in Arab (or Muslim) countries, then it is a pretty lame one, since it was actually much better than in Europe, and few people would say that Jews and Europeans cannot live in a single state. Second, read your own sentence and tell me if it makes sense: “Because Jews fared better in the Arab world than Europe, it was better?” Of course if they fared better it was better, otherwise what is the meaning of “faring better” is?

You have a lot of links ‘proving’ your points – and while I read them, I do find it rather belittling that you consider all of your sources ‘fact’ and ‘truth’. The Pew Analysis (I think this was the name) also delved into the Arab education system – and their results were also harsh. Btw, part of the Oslo process was to reform the education system (which Israel did, and the PA did not).

“Sure, just that I cannot expect them to do so before they get some sort of decent living.”

So it would have been ok for Jews to teach hatred of others when we were oppressed in another world? Or is this another irrelevant example?

“That struggle for a just society is futile?”

No, I’m not implying that – or suggesting you, or myself, or others don’t puruse it. But again, I don’t see things changing here in my life time – and no matter what you do there or I do here, I doubt I’ll see something (and hopefully I’m wrong) that will make me change my mind.

“Bi-national state that could arise in Israel, on the other hand, has never been tried ”

Just because it hasn’t been tried, doesn’t mean it would work … A proper two state solution hasn’t been tried either, so we really don’t know if that will work. You don’t want a “Jewish State” though (again, correct me if I’m wrong), which is where we’ll always disagree. I want one, I think our nation needs one. I also think they need one too, if anything – to strengthen their ability to recover from the last 60 years.

“And if we’re talking about history, then Jews fared much, much better in Arab countries throughout centuries than in Europe”

And this is relevant how? Because Jews fared better in the Arab world than Europe, it was better? Does that eliminate the ‘conversion’ law of orphaned Jewish kids? Or the massacres that are largely ignored by most? or the many poor/deprived Jews are ‘ok’ because the few who did fare much, much better than their brothers in Europe? Let’s not discount history (as you so claim so many Jews/Israelis do) because of a comparison to Europe’s treatment of the Jews.

And I think MOST people can attest to a wrong that was done to our neighbors.

Not in my experience and not beyond lip service that doesn’t make anybody feel obliged to do anything about it.

I assume you also would want the Palestinians to change their education

Sure, just that I cannot expect them to do so before they get some sort of decent living. To expect the oppressed to be gentle on their oppressors is unrealistic (as a realist you sure understand this). And with all the stink raised in Israel after Tamir tried as much as to put the Green Line into the textbooks… As they say in Russian, “look whose cow is mooing”. (By the way, read this about those famous (but here’s the rub, nonexistent) Palestinian books promoting hate and violence. Read the rest of the blog, too.)

I also know that since the dawn of time, human beings have being doing this. So to say you hope for ‘peace and justice’ is sadly something I look at as but a hope, and not something I think either of us will ’see’ practiced by our species in our lifetime.

I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. That struggle for a just society is futile? Shouldn’t even be tried? What a load of bull, sorry. Tell this to civil rights activists in the US in the 60s. Sure, people like you would sit on their arses and say that this is all just a “hope”, just idealistic chimera. But in 2009 America has a black president.

No bi-national state will satisfy both sides

On the contrary, I suspect that the state that Israel will be able to give the Palestinians (if any) will not satisfy them, 20% or so of their original partition allocation, cut out from the main water and agrarian resources, weak, demilitarized etc. There is a lot of analysis written about this. A lot of people say it is not feasible anymore.
Bi-national state that could arise in Israel, on the other hand, has never been tried (and history is largely irrelevant in this respect). Jews won’t be a small minority but rather about 50% of the population with higher level of education, standard of living etc (at least for the first n years) We are not talking about some Islamic state with Jews living in dhimmitude. If anything, it is the Arabs that will be relatively worse off. And if we’re talking about history, then Jews fared much, much better in Arab countries throughout centuries than in Europe, so, you cannot really draw any conclusions here.