Comments on: Five more comments on the situation http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/ Do I contradict myself? Very well then, I contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes) Wed, 05 May 2010 22:29:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Alex http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-233 Alex Wed, 31 Dec 2008 06:14:37 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-233 They are the one and same! They are the one and same!

]]> By: Gert http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-229 Gert Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:19:30 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-229 Aren't we all playing with words here? <i>"I am, however, trying to separate the issue of Hamas sponsored rockets from the Gaza strip from that of legitimate resistanc.">/i> What then constitutes 'legitimate resistance'? The kind of resistance Hamas cannot exercise? Does it have the means to attack the IDF? The IAF? By holding back, the IDF is in a certain sense depriving Hamas from some legitimate, 'military-on-military' action. Here the oppressor not only defines what constitutes legitimate 'resistance', he also defines which kind of confrontation to wage and which not. As regards 'Israelisation', I've been falling victim to it too and I'm not even Jewish! 'Other' and 'Self': don't fall for it hook, line and sinker, falsedi! After 20 years or so of debating this question (I/P) and I find myself parroting the Israeli line all too often. Demonisation really <i>does</i> pay off. I've yet to read one single line that dares write about the other things that Hamas also does and is. But no need for a defence for the defenceless, I guess. F-O-R-T-Y Y-E-A-R-S O-F O-C-C-U-P-A-T-I-O-N, <i>anyone?</i> Gang of Four, are these the ones from 'I love a man in Uniform'? That would be a strange coincidence... Aren’t we all playing with words here?

“I am, however, trying to separate the issue of Hamas sponsored rockets from the Gaza strip from that of legitimate resistanc.”>/i>

What then constitutes ‘legitimate resistance’? The kind of resistance Hamas cannot exercise? Does it have the means to attack the IDF? The IAF?

By holding back, the IDF is in a certain sense depriving Hamas from some legitimate, ‘military-on-military’ action. Here the oppressor not only defines what constitutes legitimate ‘resistance’, he also defines which kind of confrontation to wage and which not.

As regards ‘Israelisation’, I’ve been falling victim to it too and I’m not even Jewish! ‘Other’ and ‘Self’: don’t fall for it hook, line and sinker, falsedi!

After 20 years or so of debating this question (I/P) and I find myself parroting the Israeli line all too often. Demonisation really does pay off. I’ve yet to read one single line that dares write about the other things that Hamas also does and is. But no need for a defence for the defenceless, I guess.

F-O-R-T-Y Y-E-A-R-S O-F O-C-C-U-P-A-T-I-O-N, anyone?

Gang of Four, are these the ones from ‘I love a man in Uniform’? That would be a strange coincidence…

]]> By: Alex http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-228 Alex Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:11:57 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-228 Gert - I don't understand the point you're trying to make in the final paragraph. I've never tried to separate the issue of terrorism from occupation. I am, however, trying to separate the issue of Hamas sponsored rockets from the Gaza strip from that of legitimate resistanc. Maybe we will be back to square one afterwards, maybe that's the way of the world... How ironic: 5.45 by Gang of Four is playing on my iTunes. As a northerner, I hope you know the tune! A Gert – I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make in the final paragraph. I’ve never tried to separate the issue of terrorism from occupation. I am, however, trying to separate the issue of Hamas sponsored rockets from the Gaza strip from that of legitimate resistanc. Maybe we will be back to square one afterwards, maybe that’s the way of the world…
How ironic: 5.45 by Gang of Four is playing on my iTunes. As a northerner, I hope you know the tune!
A

]]> By: Avram http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-226 Avram Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:40:32 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-226 You're still a Jew Alex, and still a Zionist ... now you're just an Israeli Jewish Zionist. You’re still a Jew Alex, and still a Zionist … now you’re just an Israeli Jewish Zionist.

]]> By: Gert http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-225 Gert Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:24:17 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-225 Israelis always want to separate the terrorism issue from the occupation issue, as if the former arrived out of a vacuum, a la Bush; "They don't life our way of life". A la Livni and "Our values are better than their values". In that sense you are indeed 'Israelising'. What will happen now? The IDF will not dare go in and try and finish the job on the ground: too many body bags isn't good for the election. But finishing off the job is rationally <i>the only real option</i>: the rest means loss of life and infrastructure for nothing: the next negotiated truce will be as fragile as the previous one. <i>Bang, bang,</i> a few shots from either side and we're back to square one. I really look forward to seeing the usual apparatchik sock-puppets like Livni, Barak, Olmert, Herzog etc etc paraded on my screen with their endless <i>"de Gamas, de Gamas, de Gamas..."</i> chant. Another 10 years down the line and there'll be a proportionate increase in WB settlements, that's another thing we can definitely bank on. In that sense your analysis really constitutes no more than belletterie, a la Harry's Place. I see you've got the usual sycophants like Stephen Hoffmann to go with the territory... Israelis always want to separate the terrorism issue from the occupation issue, as if the former arrived out of a vacuum, a la Bush; “They don’t life our way of life”. A la Livni and “Our values are better than their values”. In that sense you are indeed ‘Israelising’.

What will happen now? The IDF will not dare go in and try and finish the job on the ground: too many body bags isn’t good for the election. But finishing off the job is rationally the only real option: the rest means loss of life and infrastructure for nothing: the next negotiated truce will be as fragile as the previous one. Bang, bang, a few shots from either side and we’re back to square one.

I really look forward to seeing the usual apparatchik sock-puppets like Livni, Barak, Olmert, Herzog etc etc paraded on my screen with their endless “de Gamas, de Gamas, de Gamas…” chant.

Another 10 years down the line and there’ll be a proportionate increase in WB settlements, that’s another thing we can definitely bank on.

In that sense your analysis really constitutes no more than belletterie, a la Harry’s Place. I see you’ve got the usual sycophants like Stephen Hoffmann to go with the territory…

]]> By: Alex http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-217 Alex Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:21:13 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-217 The root cause of the problem is the inability of the two sides to recognise that the land contains two groups with distinct national rights and aspirations; that problem long predates the Occupation. Perhaps I have become more 'Israelised', but I must confess that that's the reason I came here. I was once a Jew, then a Zionist, and now I am an Israeli. I like to think of that as a sensible evolution. The root cause of the problem is the inability of the two sides to recognise that the land contains two groups with distinct national rights and aspirations; that problem long predates the Occupation. Perhaps I have become more ‘Israelised’, but I must confess that that’s the reason I came here. I was once a Jew, then a Zionist, and now I am an Israeli. I like to think of that as a sensible evolution.

]]> By: Gert http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-216 Gert Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:53:27 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-216 <i>"Apart from - surprise surprise - Hezbollah in 2006, is there any example in history of a resistance/terrorist movement succeeding to liberate territory from the occupier, only to do all it can to invite the occupier back in again? This seems to be what Hamas wants. Hummus in the vineyard on me to anyone who can point to another time when this has happened."</i> Correct: it never has. My response to a commenter over at mine read: <i>"Israel has the right to defend herself. But are you convinced that eliminating 280 Hamas fighters will put a stop to the rockets? Will a fully fledged ground invasion? Is the outcome not relevant to the action itself? How will such actions somehow turn the Gazans against Hamas? Show me one (just one single) historical example where aerial bombardment turned a people against its leaders. Didn't happen in Nazi Germany, didn't happen in Britain during the Blitz, didn't even happen in the country that received the biggest aerial explosive payload ever (Vietnam)."</i> No example was offered by said commenter because there are no such examples. Yet isn't 'regime change' what Olmert, Livni and Barak mention as a prime motive for Operation Lead Balloon? Is Falsedi forgetting that in extreme conflict situations opponents often turn out to look like mirror images of one another? Or is Alex Stein becoming a tad too 'Israelised'? Israel should be deeply ashamed of itself for this crude over-reaction and repetition of previous blunders. And the root-cause of the problem remains the Occupation, not Hamas. “Apart from – surprise surprise – Hezbollah in 2006, is there any example in history of a resistance/terrorist movement succeeding to liberate territory from the occupier, only to do all it can to invite the occupier back in again? This seems to be what Hamas wants. Hummus in the vineyard on me to anyone who can point to another time when this has happened.”

Correct: it never has.

My response to a commenter over at mine read:

“Israel has the right to defend herself. But are you convinced that eliminating 280 Hamas fighters will put a stop to the rockets? Will a fully fledged ground invasion? Is the outcome not relevant to the action itself? How will such actions somehow turn the Gazans against Hamas? Show me one (just one single) historical example where aerial bombardment turned a people against its leaders. Didn’t happen in Nazi Germany, didn’t happen in Britain during the Blitz, didn’t even happen in the country that received the biggest aerial explosive payload ever (Vietnam).”

No example was offered by said commenter because there are no such examples. Yet isn’t ‘regime change’ what Olmert, Livni and Barak mention as a prime motive for Operation Lead Balloon?

Is Falsedi forgetting that in extreme conflict situations opponents often turn out to look like mirror images of one another? Or is Alex Stein becoming a tad too ‘Israelised’?

Israel should be deeply ashamed of itself for this crude over-reaction and repetition of previous blunders.

And the root-cause of the problem remains the Occupation, not Hamas.

]]> By: Arieh Kovler http://falsedichotomies.com/2008/12/29/five-more-comments-on-the-situation/comment-page-1/#comment-213 Arieh Kovler Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:54:03 +0000 http://falsedichotomies.com/?p=128#comment-213 Alex, this piece and the last one were excellent. Thanks for the insight Alex, this piece and the last one were excellent.

Thanks for the insight

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